Knighthoods/Headliners treating fatima badly

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Mave
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Knighthoods/Headliners treating fatima badly

Post by Mave » Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:02 pm

The most despised character thread sparked this chain of thoughts.

We know that the Kneue Syltiss are infamous for treating their fatimas quite badly, as mere tools and not individuals.

Isnt that madly counterproductive?

Because its revealed in jp book 9 and eng vol 22 that those fatimas that are allowed to choose their masters and treated well perform better than those who do not with a whooping 300%. This fact was discovered hundreds of years ago and you´d think such a large and powerful knighthood like the Kneue Syltiss ought to know these things.

Of course there are exceptions like Ian König and Blreno Canzian who changes his ways after the Colus-Hagooda war.

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Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:05 pm

I don't think a HL abusing his Fatima has much to do with her performance. A fatima will choose a master based on a number of criteria, and as long as that HL exists, once she chooses him, she will serve him for life (or until released).

However, if a fatima is forced to serve under someone she does not recognize as her master of her own free will, the desire to serve him/her with all her being will not exist, thus the reduction in performance.

In the case of Canzian and Paracha, even though he beat her horribly, she still wanted to please him as much as possible.

In other words, once they choose you, they are yours for life no matter how they are treated.

Of course, I would treat my fatima very well, because I would want her in good health when facing my enemies. 8)
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Post by Mave » Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:22 pm

Of course, I would treat my fatima very well, because I would want her in good health when facing my enemies.

Exactly! I mean, thats just common sense. But it seems such things are sorely lacking :roll:

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Post by Rubel Colus » Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:50 am

Actually, there seems to be some difference when comparing the attitudes of the Kneue Syltiss in earlier volumes and the later ones.

In the earlier volumes, we see Gellow and Carzian mis-treating their fatimas and we have the impression that Fillmore Knights are cruel towards their fatima. However, in vol 10, we see a change - perhaps Nagano wants us to have a better impression of Fillmore knights now.

There is this scene in JP Vol 10 where Lader was talking to young Christine V. He still maintains that Fatimas are merely tools, they are not to be treated like humans, coz they are not humans. The bottomline is not to get emotionally attached to fatimas, if not, it will result in both the knight and fatima becoming distracted and weak. However, Lader says that the fatimas are important assets and must be well taken care of, just like a precious equipment.

This seems to contradict with the events that happened in the earlier volumes. Perhaps, it is only Gellow and Canzian who were cruel to their fatimas; and it does not reflect the majority of the Fillmore knights.

Even the fatima Machi agreed with Lader and stated that in this way, fatimas will be most mentally stable, and will be able to perform to their best. Knights commonly misunderstood that fatimas chose them to be their master because of love, which is totally not true. The fatimas' selection is based purely on the knights' capability and their compatibility, not love. Likewise, the knights should not have mistaken this logical decision to be love. It is said that Fillmore fatimas have the lowest rate in mental breakdowns due to this reason.


The strange thing is, I remembered Lader had his (then) fatima Kratouma as his wife?! If this is true, then he totally goes against what he preached. Not sure if it was stated in the English volumes, but i am quite sure it appeared somewhere, maybe in one of the chara books. Perhaps an old setting that is being changed now.

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Post by Mave » Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:08 am

You are absolutely right, it feels alittle like history revisionism from Nagano :x

Lader did indeed wed his fatima and that is also stated in the characters presentation section in the english volumes. Of what we see in the manga he also treats Kratoughma pretty well.

Maybe he is tricking young Christine V 8)

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Post by Tachyon » Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:12 pm

This is possible. However, I imagine it's also possible that Lader married his fatima as more a political statement: "I'm not going to marry and produce an heir! So get another heir ready!"
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Post by Tomexe » Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:59 pm

The philosophy on Filmore may be to not get close to fatimas- which some than misinterpret as a excuse to abuse them- but Machi herself is wrong in assuming that humans mistake programmed duty for love.

At least the Ballanchene and Morard fatimas dont always.

Auxo does love Kaine, Clotho loved Colus III even though he WASN'T her master, Palternon loved Shaft (crazy as it sounds). Est's "Est" program loved some of her masters (at the very least Rodoss and Grard).

And if you really want to get philosophical you can always ask what IS love anyways? Are humans really making a choice or are just responding to their proramming to find the best mate for reproduction?

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Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:40 pm

Tomexe wrote:
And if you really want to get philosophical you can always ask what IS love anyways? Are humans really making a choice or are just responding to their proramming to find the best mate for reproduction?
Simply responding to the instinct to find a mate for reproduction. Because we humans are capable of reasoning, we want reasons for all of our instincs and emotions, so this particular instinct we define as "love".
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Post by Rubel Colus » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:23 pm

Tomexe wrote:The philosophy on Filmore may be to not get close to fatimas- which some than misinterpret as a excuse to abuse them- but Machi herself is wrong in assuming that humans mistake programmed duty for love.

At least the Ballanchene and Morard fatimas dont always.

Auxo does love Kaine, Clotho loved Colus III even though he WASN'T her master, Palternon loved Shaft (crazy as it sounds). Est's "Est" program loved some of her masters (at the very least Rodoss and Grard).

And if you really want to get philosophical you can always ask what IS love anyways? Are humans really making a choice or are just responding to their proramming to find the best mate for reproduction?
hmm very interesting. you do have a point there.

Perhaps some fatimas did loved their masters. However, what Machi said was maybe only applicable at the stage of selection. Fatimas do not chose their masters based on love, it is a very rational decision based solely on compatibility and capability of the knight. Yet, for some cases like Megaera, her decision for chosing Viewlard may not be totally rational. Her incident with Viewlard might have left such a deep impression in her that it affected her decision. This might be the same for Lachesis and Sopp.

So did fatimas really love their masters? Maybe they did, after working together so closely for some time, it is understandable that feelings develop naturally. Then comes the question: do fatimas really know what is love (and other emotions)? Remember that they are "programmed" to react in certain ways according to the situation. This theory was first mentioned by Uranium Balance, when he was proposing the idea of programmed "emotional" reactions to Empress Mikoto to teach the young and emotionless Sopp. The same theory was supposed to be used for the fatimas.

When we see a fatima crying, we dont really know if she is really feeling sad. Is that a programmed reaction? Or did it really come from her heart? Do the fatimas even know that they are affected by the programming? In the end, you may be right that true emotions and programming might be just a thin line of difference. For some cases, it has already become a part of them.
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Post by Tomexe » Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:57 am

And it can also be argued that we humans are programmed too, though we choose to call it things like "instinct" or "reflex". And we do not get to meet our programmer (at least not yet) but fatimas do know who built them. This contributes to a aura of artificiality that is more image than substance.

And Machi is partially right in that there are Fatimas who are good friends with their masters but NOT lovers. Most noticable are the female headliner/female fatima parings like Christine/Machi, Aisha/Alecto, and Jabo/Concorde. But I am sure that there are other pairings like that that are male female. Apparently Machi and Barbaluse V had such a relationsip. I don't know how their relationship changes AFTER they become Mirage Knights but Allen Bradford and Kyo don't seem to be intimate in any way, though Kyo seems she might be having feelings for Allen. But Bradford seems to be to SCARED and in AWE of Kyo to try and be more than friends with her.

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Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:53 am

There is a perfect example of a Fatima who actually loves her master.

Eatta.

Wife and Fatima to Falk U. Rognar. Even after his death, she is not released from her bond to him as is the case with all other fatima in existance (cept the Fates of course...no mind control) she will wait for her true master to be regenerated.

Of course it may simply be that Rognar is absolutely so much more powerful than everyone else (or even a LED Mirage!) that there isn't anyone else she would accept...
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Post by Rubel Colus » Thu Oct 21, 2004 3:18 am

hmm i dont really know... Eatta might be programmed to be Rognar's partner. Another example of 'fixed' partner is Auxo/Focuslight - she is either hard-coded or sub-conciously obligated to chose only Pure Blooded Headliners as master. That is why she chose Svas and Kaien, and when Kaien released her, she totally broke down. I suspect Eatta is like-wise or even much more hard-coded to chose Rognar only. This might be the reason why her name is such (remember the Princess and the Dragon story?). Why is she named Eatta? Is it pure coincidence, or did Ballance know about it? Eatta might even had her most minute freedom taken away from her, she cant even get to chose her master!

Maybe a good example is Lachesis loving Sopp? If Lachesis can be considered a fatima in the first place.
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Post by Falk » Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:17 am

Wasn't Eatta built with some Rognar's DNA or cells ?
Not sure at all but I have that in mind. :roll:
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Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:28 am

I've considered the possibility.

Its either that she was programmed to choose only Rognar or;

She knows that even though he has died, he will be back so she simply waits or;

She loves him enough that her bond to him isn't broken when he dies.

Its gotta be one of those three. Or maybe all of them, who knows with Nagano at the helm...
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Post by Tomexe » Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:41 pm

Ballanchine fatimas do appear to at times to have a "deep programming" most clearly visable with Auxo's regeneration.

Auxo is only attracted to headliners decended from Ned Swans. Ietta is attracted only to Rognar clones. All Ballanchine Fatimas have a attraction to Sopp as a kind of "arch master".

Magella it would also seem, from the 'flash forward' to the day Float Temple is blown up, to have a attraction to decendants of the Routh family, even when she already has another master.

But is this any different from human women being attracted to a certain TYPE of male? And it would also need to determine first wether the human tendency toward monogamy is cultural or gentic.

It also may be that Ballanchine programmed his fatimas so well that their behavior is indistinguishable from the natural behavior of human women. As all the fatimas behavior towards their masters fall within the range of relationships had by natural human women..

Also don't streatch too much how long Ietta has to wait between Rognars. She is not much more than 300 years old and should be on only her second Rognar, and maybe only her first, when we meet her in 2990. She does have Sopp as her "fall back master", and she has never been in a postion where she has lost Rognar but been out of the protection of Amatarasu. And in Fatima terms it doesn't take long to regnerate a Rognar, maybe 25 years. At which point, even though he has a boys body the mind is mature enough for the daughter chip to work and he has fully regained his powers of mind and can start being her master again. In the meantime, she seems to function, like Majer, as the child Rognars foster mother. Thus the amount of time she is truely without Rognar is measured in maybe months.

Rognar is lucky to have her, because otherwise his life would be really lonely due to his form of mental imortality. Their closeness therefor is more than just husband and wife.

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