1/100 Phantom kits--questions.

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John F. Moscato
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1/100 Phantom kits--questions.

Post by John F. Moscato » Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:32 pm

I just finally recieved my Volks SAV Scarlet Phantom kit today. Very beautiful work, I must say... But the kit suffers from "tiny syndrome", just like the Volks mighty series.

Having said that, I've been looking over pictures of the Silicone Tribe Phantom model in an issue of Model Graphix, and I have to say that the detail on this kit looks very impressive indeed; perhaps even a bit crisper than the Volks equivalent. At first I found the proportions to look a bit awkward to my eye, but it seems to have grown on me. Having said this, does anyone here have either an original or recast of the ST model? I was hoping I could get some opinions on the quality/size of the kit if possible :)
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Post by KOG » Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:21 pm

Volks is tiny?

Are you speaking in terms of height, or in terms of bulkiness (or lack thereof)?

I was under the impression that Volks Phantom height compared favorably with other recent Volks releases. Maybe elemental can shed light on this, since he's completed several of the more recent Volks kits, including V sirens and Phantom.

I'm not all that pleased in general with Silicon Tribe stuff. Detail is not bad, but the proportions always seem messed up.

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Post by John F. Moscato » Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:07 am

Hi KOG.

My apologies, I should have been more specific. The height is actually quite good... Just under 24cm to the top of the helmet, and roughly 28.5 to the top of the horns. I was in fact focussing on the extreme skinniness of the torso when I made my first post. To be perfectly fair, I simply LOVE this model: it's elegant and sleek, and is probably one of the best detailed kits I've ever seen... I was just wondering if the Silicone Tribe offering was about the same size, as it tends to look a bit "meatier" while still retaining that overall slim feel.

Another silly question that probably belongs in the FSS TALK section: with regards to the Siren series MH, we have two extremes: the elegant Neptune and the massive type A-E. are all of these MH based on the same chassis? My first thought was that the Neptune/Prominence types might in fact be "cheetah" framed models, whereas the heavy Sirens would logically be using a "lion" chassis, but I wonder if that actually makes sense, since they should all have the same frame, being all "sirens" and all. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Also, is there any info on whether the Vatshu MH uses a "cheetah" or "lion" frame, and secondly, is the Decors version officially considered a "heavy" variant?
John F. Moscato

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Post by elemental » Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:28 am

Just to clarify on the size issue... All the recent Volks kits are comparable in size, except the mighty series. For my liking, Volks SAV Prominence is a little on the thin side. I feel it should be a bit bulkier, particularly the head and chest/torso

As you point out, John, Volks Phantom is a good overall height. If it were any bulkier I don't think I would like it as much as I do. I guess you prefer bulky designs over the slimmer designs?

As for Sirens... I believe Siren F a slimmed down/tuned uo version of the standard Siren A. Mark posted this at Heika a while back:
F,G,H are Group leader's Sirens. Basically same as the Siren A, except they are lighter and engines go thru high power tuning. Powered up version.
I think most of the differences are cosmetic, with a bit of tinkering to the engines, perhaps? It seems logical that if a MH is not carrying a huge armour load, it can output more power for faster movement.

I remember from the manga that Arcanna has special new-technology armours similar to the Mirages, or some such. I can't remember the exact details, if indeed any were given.

Vatshu... should be the one frame in all varients, seeing as it is the same machine. Again, more or less cosmetic changes to armour based on how the current Black Knight prefers his machine to perform. Heavy Vatshu simple means it has more armour than other variants, probably with some engine tinkering/tuning. Compared to other "heavy" MH, Vatshu is a bit on the light side. Just my take on it all...

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Post by John F. Moscato » Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:16 am

Hi Elemental. Thanks, that clears up a lot :)

Indeed, I tend to have a soft-spot for the heavy MHs, but I can still appreciate the splendour and gracefulness of the lightweights; they just compliment each other.

Actually, my only "minor" issue with the phantom is due to the size of the torso. Everything is beautifully proportionate, but being a very technical person at times, I find that I have a hard time immagining that you can fit an ample cockpit and a 190cm+ headdliner inside something so incredibly tiny. After all, you still have to cram the engines and mechanicals in the chest/midsection along with the cockpit.

That's probably why I'm so fond of the "bigger", more massive models like WSC Vatshu and SAV LED V3: their size is just so much more sensible and appears to offer more protection to the headdliner for the size of the MH.

That's probably why I'm so torn between the WSC and Volks Neptune kit: the former has a bit more thickness to it, which I like, but the latter is much more graceful and better detailed. Based on the MH skeleton diagram in Knight Flags, the WSC kit seems closer to the proportions of Nagano's drawing, but since I have virtually nothing translated about the newer MH info, I honestly don't know if something like the Neptune is supposed to be an ultra-light "cheetah" MH like the Phantom/Mighty series,
or simply a heavy MH with very light armor.
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Post by Falk » Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:29 am

Yup', I remember reading about the Siren Arcanna that it has a layered armor (looking really cool BTW). But I don't know how it works.

Mmh about Vatshu, does "heavy vatshu" is an official term ? Or something we've come up to differentiate the various redesign ?
Cuz' for me there's not really a heavy vatshu, just a really nice redesign. I'd say amongst the "old" MHs, Vatshu was the one who aged the most. I prefere LEDs with heels and transluscent armor against the old version with flat feet, but the design isn't that different from 15 years ago. Old Vatshu on the other hand is looking really bad IMO, particularly in kits were it's often to rounded.

What I may call heavy vatshu is that artwork where we see only a part of it, along with heavy cross and -a heavier/a bit more organic- arcanna. (here's the pic : http://www.gearsonline.net/fss/mh/vatsh ... night3.gif )

About the frame, I'd say it's hard to define Vatshu's frame, as it was built "from scratch" (by Dr. Xbin), not on another MH base.
I would call it a "Ryu" frame, you know like every fighting game has "it's Ryu" (an overall good character with no weakness and a cool design)^^.
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Post by KOG » Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:48 pm

I don't think "Heavy Vatshu' is an official term. The official name is still just Vatshu. But we talk about "heavy vatshu' to make it clear we aren't referring to the old version.

Regarding MH frames and armor... I think it was once said that all MH frames are pretty similar in terms of structure and operation. The main things that seperate MH are the engines, and the people operating the MH.

I think it was also said that pretty much any MH frame can be reconfigured and tuned to run with light armor, or heavy armor. So as incredible as it may seem, the core structure of an Alkana and a Phantom shouldn't be all that different.

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can confirm or correct this.

As for Phantom's skinny little torso... I think that's one of the things that I love about FSS... it totally flies in the face of 'practicality'. There seem to be a lot of design elements in MH that just show the lengths to which the MH builders went to overcome technical hurdles in order to achieve an aesthetic design effect. So I just forget about technical concerns when appreciating MH designs... the artsier and more outrageous, the better. :)

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Post by John F. Moscato » Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:12 pm

I agree, can't get enough of the outrageous designs (Boowray, Phantom, Jagd, etc) within reason, of course. I'm sorry, but the Gast Temple just rubs me the wrong way ( I still think it looks like a Golgoth.) :wink:

I think that the stinker for me is seeing how roomy & spacious the Fatima & Headdliner cockpits in the manga are supposed to be, and then trying to transfer that over to the scale models and seeing it clearly come-up short... I still remember Nagano's drawing of the Male Cross Mirage showing a side-view of the cockpits/systems layout and thinking to myself how roomy it all was.

You may very well be right about the quasi-universality of MH frames though, and I think that's probably why I mistook the Neptune skeleton for a Phantom: looking at the joints, limbs and face of the skeleton, you'll see almost identical details on the sculpt of Hirai's Phantom kit.
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Post by KOG » Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:45 pm

John F. Moscato wrote:I agree, can't get enough of the outrageous designs (Boowray, Phantom, Jagd, etc) within reason, of course. I'm sorry, but the Gast Temple just rubs me the wrong way ( I still think it looks like a Golgoth.) :wink:
I like some aspects of Gastness. But I am not entirely sold on the head. I actually like Awaken more, and would have preferred a kit of that 'bad guy' MH. Don't know what a Golgoth is.

I think that the stinker for me is seeing how roomy & spacious the Fatima & Headdliner cockpits in the manga are supposed to be, and then trying to transfer that over to the scale models and seeing it clearly come-up short... I still remember Nagano's drawing of the Male Cross Mirage showing a side-view of the cockpits/systems layout and thinking to myself how roomy it all was.
Hrm... various 1/100 cockpit figures I've seen are pretty darn small... would it really be that hard to fit a pilot inside the Volks phantom torso? Maybe... maybe not... I dunno.

You may very well be right about the quasi-universality of MH frames though, and I think that's probably why I mistook the Neptune skeleton for a Phantom: looking at the joints, limbs and face of the skeleton, you'll see almost identical details on the sculpt of Hirai's Phantom kit.
The important clue is that there are still bits of Neptune armor attached to the frame in that illustration. :P

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Post by John F. Moscato » Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:51 pm

Here, this will illustrate my point.

I've used Leopold Chrysalis as my stand-in headdliner model, posing against the Black Knight by WSC. I actually downsized Leopold a little. Based on images I've seen, it seems that he's about as tall as Rogner, and Rogner is just over 2m tall, if I recall. Anyhoo, my Leopold is scaled-down to about 1m 85-90. You can clearly see that the chest area would house a cockpit with very little problems.

Image


Next, Leopold standing next to Volks' Phantom. I think it's plain for all to see that the Phantom's very slender frame doesn't give a headdliner adequate clearance.

Image
Image
And finally, a comparative shot of both MHs :D

Image
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Post by KOG » Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:58 pm

Hrm... he'd be sitting inside, or even reclining.... not standing.

But it's true, it doesn't seem like there'd be a lot of room left over after the cockpit is considered.

Oh well, gotta blame Nagano I guess... I think Volks did a good job of representing the art, so if the torso's too small, the art's to blame.

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Post by Sheizzel » Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:23 pm

Here's the drawing from Vol.11
Image

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