The "Gathering" WIP thread

Models and Toys Related to Five Star Stories

Moderator: kosh

Post Reply
User avatar
happy hopping
Posts: 606
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2004 1:29 am

Post by happy hopping » Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:34 am

jinnai wrote:I will (and already do) have access to older kits.

We all need to start somewhere. I chose the Red Phantom because there's more of that in stock right now than any other kit (except for Kneeling B4's.. lot of them also right now..).

.
okay, so i can request any FSS GK original, and you can deliver?
If you buy a pet from pet stores , you are encouraging those breeders to breed more. This is the condition that they lives in:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu_JqNdp2As

when you buy a pet:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WCNr-VrkXl8

Adopt a pet

Hellequin

Post by Hellequin » Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:46 pm

jinnai wrote: Why do you think they nearly stopped to begin with? The HK recast indrustry is hurting japanese GK sales. That's why Volks was pulling out.

But hey..
I thought it was because there were some complications over their reacquisition of the licence that forced them to put off FSS work for a bit. :?

User avatar
Hydra Mirage
Posts: 197
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:55 pm
Location: LA

Post by Hydra Mirage » Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:29 pm

I can't see how recasts effect Volks.
There is no way I could ever afford an original Volks.
So if I buy a recast how does that effect them ?

Also if recasts are hurting them, why don't they do the same thing ?
ie. produce recast 2nd generation resins at half the price ?
If they reduce their prices I'd much rather buy direct (if they even sold kits outside of Japan!!!!)

PS. Is the Final Junchoon really that rare ?

User avatar
Falk
Posts: 505
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 6:14 pm
Location: Babylon Kingdom (well, France :þ)

Post by Falk » Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:41 pm

Mmh come to think of it, doesn't the package costs a lot ?

For instance, when you buy a processor, depending if it's a boxes version or bulk, price may vary A LOT, so Volks boxes, with their chrome or gold, may cost quite a lot (of course not to the point of bringing the price twice as a recast), but anyway, maybe some cheaper packages (for 2nd generation resins) could help to ?
Image

John F. Moscato
Posts: 214
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:24 am

Post by John F. Moscato » Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:49 pm

Hellequin wrote:
jinnai wrote: Why do you think they nearly stopped to begin with? The HK recast indrustry is hurting japanese GK sales. That's why Volks was pulling out.

But hey..
I thought it was because there were some complications over their reacquisition of the licence that forced them to put off FSS work for a bit. :?
Same thing. Illegal recasts offer a cheaper alternative to the pricier but better original, consequently, the original GK manufacturer (in this case Volks) ends up selling fewer & fewer original kits.

Royalties from Toyspress probably cost just as much to renew; most likely the royalty increases with the years ( they ALL do) and so the GK manufacturer finds itself making less money overall. This leads to the GK manufacturer wanting to re-negociate a more reasonnable ( lower) royalty, and threatens to not renew its liscence unless it can get it for a better price---> dispute ensues, long GK drought---> both parties find a middle ground and agree---> newer FSS kits are eventually produced.
John F. Moscato

User avatar
Hydra Mirage
Posts: 197
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:55 pm
Location: LA

Post by Hydra Mirage » Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:50 pm

Come to think of it, there isn't that great a variety of FSS recasts.

Plus most of the recast aren't even available as originals...

John F. Moscato
Posts: 214
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:24 am

Post by John F. Moscato » Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:03 pm

Hydra Mirage wrote:Come to think of it, there isn't that great a variety of FSS recasts.

Plus most of the recast aren't even available as originals...
True. There are only 2 or 3 major bootlegging sources that supply the bulk of the material, but they seem to get around. As for your comment about most recasts not being available as originals, I beg to differ: an original kit is barely released onto the market when pre-orders arise on both Hobbyfan and E-2046. You may not think that two sites would make a difference, but judging by how very small the FSS market is to begin with, it lands a major blow right to the heart of the industry, and makes it that much harder for firms like Volks or WSC to branch-out, sell more models, and be able to offer their product at a more competitive price.

As for the old excuse that "it's out of production anyway", that holds but flimsy ground: who's to say that the original manufacturer wasn't considering a re-issue? Problem is, while the legitimate manufacturer waits patiently for enough orders to trickle-in to justify a re-release, the bootlegs come out, and take away not all, but JUST enough orders to not make the re-issue worthwhile, and thus it never happens.
John F. Moscato

User avatar
Hydra Mirage
Posts: 197
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:55 pm
Location: LA

Post by Hydra Mirage » Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:13 pm

and makes it that much harder for firms like Volks or WSC to branch-out, sell more models, and be able to offer their product at a more competitive price.
Hmmm, I think it's the extremley high price tag is what makes it hard for firms like volks and wsc to branch out.
Seems to me they have shot themselves in the foot with bad business sense.
Personally I thank the heavens for bootlegs. In the end it's about everyone being able to share in Nagano's genius IMO.

KOG
Posts: 774
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:33 pm
Contact:

Post by KOG » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:34 pm

Hydra Mirage wrote:Come to think of it, there isn't that great a variety of FSS recasts.

Plus most of the recast aren't even available as originals...
And on the other hand, almost ALL new kits, whether they be from Volks, WSC, or FAC are available as recasts. And these new kits are what the firms really need to get sold.

Hydra Mirage wrote:Hmmm, I think it's the extremley high price tag is what makes it hard for firms like volks and wsc to branch out.
Seems to me they have shot themselves in the foot with bad business sense.
Personally I thank the heavens for bootlegs. In the end it's about everyone being able to share in Nagano's genius IMO.
I can't disagree more. This isn't the '70s, full of free love, peace, and happiness for everyone. Nagano creates FSS for his readers to enjoy, but it's also his bread and butter. And Volks and WSC don't make kits on a non-profit basis just to make sure every fan can build a model of their favorite MH. They are a business. So they deserve recompense for their efforts.

fulcy

Post by fulcy » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:45 pm

Hydra Mirage wrote:Hmmm, I think it's the extremley high price tag is what makes it hard for firms like volks and wsc to branch out.
Seems to me they have shot themselves in the foot with bad business sense.
Personally I thank the heavens for bootlegs. In the end it's about everyone being able to share in Nagano's genius IMO.
While I agree the costs of originals are high, when compared to the costs of recasts, you are forgetting one thing - Volks and WSC need to take into account the time to actually sculpt the master they make the molds from. If e2046 and hobbyfan were actually sculpting masters, and making their molds from those sculpts, instead of making their molds from a purchased kit (or worse, a kit that someone has sent them to recast - which is a HORRIBLE idea), their prices would be darn close to the price point of a Volks or WSC...

KOG
Posts: 774
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:33 pm
Contact:

Post by KOG » Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:00 pm

Yep, Volks and WSC have to consider many costs: labor, licensing, package design, not to mention MARKETING. Volks and WSC want to get advertisements and articles placed in hobby mags, this costs money. Recasts get tons of free publicity through recast websites. All this adds up, so you can see why originals cost more.

User avatar
Hydra Mirage
Posts: 197
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:55 pm
Location: LA

Post by Hydra Mirage » Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:10 pm

Yes. I understand your point.
My point is that if they reduce the price by half they would probably sell 5 times more.
I think this is a simple concept.

The fact that there is a healthy recast market means there is still a good market for decent fss kits at a resonable price.
If volks pricing was more comparable to recast pricing (and why not since manufacture is the same, lose the pretty boxes) they would GAIN business from the recast market.
As I have already stated I (and I'm sure all fss fans) would rather buy a volks from volks, And I'd much rather indirectly pay Nagano than some guy in Hong Kong.

As far as marketing goes, are you joking ?
I never see FSS commercials unless it's next to the story in Newtype.
And it cost nothing to put a decent website together (in english with overseas orders ?)

John F. Moscato
Posts: 214
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:24 am

Post by John F. Moscato » Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:19 pm

Hydra Mirage wrote:Yes. I understand your point.
My point is that if they reduce the price by half they would probably sell 5 times more.
I think this is a simple concept.
Not really. The FSS model consumer market is too small to justify producing 5 times the merchandise. The high cost of the original comes from the fact that there's a limited and finite market base, and as a result, the manufacturers have to amortize development costs over that unfortunately limited number of "sellable" kits.

The recasters are just theives and parasites living off the hard work and sweat of the original sculptors/manufacturers. As Fulcy stated, if they had to dish-out for the cost of sculpting an original and proper packaging, the price would be about the same.
John F. Moscato

User avatar
Hydra Mirage
Posts: 197
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:55 pm
Location: LA

Post by Hydra Mirage » Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:30 pm

This is basic.

1) Would you agree that there are more recast sold than originals ?
2) How many more x2 x3 ?

Therefore as long as there is at least x2 recast kits sold. Volks could reduce there price by half and still make the same money whilst competing with the recasters.
I think there are far more recast kits sold than originals.
As stated above I think it's more like x3 to x5 more recast kits.

KOG
Posts: 774
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:33 pm
Contact:

Post by KOG » Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:36 pm

Hydra Mirage wrote:Yes. I understand your point.
My point is that if they reduce the price by half they would probably sell 5 times more.
I think this is a simple concept.
While selling 'more units' is of course a desirable thing.... it is not quite that simple. Each unit involves a certain investment in terms of materials and labor, which both translate to money. Profit per unit is of course the proceeds from sale of the unit, minus associated costs. Materials. Labor. Maintaining a warehouse for storage of inventory. And on and on. If you slash the price of the kit too much, there comes a point when you're just making too little profit per unit to make it worthwhile. If you're making a tiny amount of profit per unit, then multiplying your sales is not going to make all that much difference. You know, it's not like Volks and WSC are out there trying to take advantage of consumers *cough*Bandai*cough*. They are just trying to pursue a business model that's efficient, and profitable enough to make it worth pursuing. I don't think they sit around and wonder how much they can gouge the customer. If they could sell kits cheaper and still run a healthy business, I'm sure they would. All you have to do is look at B-Club resins. Especially their conversion kits. Much less resin, much less parts, much less detail... blah blah. And yet they can often cost nearly as much, or more than a full FSS kit. THAT'S unfair pricing.

The fact that there is a healthy recast market means there is still a good market for decent fss kits at a resonable price.
If volks pricing was more comparable to recast pricing (and why not since manufacture is the same, lose the pretty boxes) they would GAIN business from the recast market.
Let's face it... dropping the 'pretty boxes' is not going to cut the cost of the kits in half. And while it may take Volks and WSC the same amount of time as a recaster to produce a single unit... this is meaningless since Volks and WSC have so many other costs to worry about. Aforementioned licensing, original sculpt process, and so forth. Recasts can only be sold cheap because they cut out the need for all these costs. Volks and WSC can not eliminate these costs. Plain and simple.

As far as marketing goes, are you joking ?
I never see FSS commercials unless it's next to the story in Newtype.
And it cost nothing to put a decent website together (in english with overseas orders ?)
I guess you haven't seen the multi-page adverts that Volks carries regularly in hobby japan and dengeki hobby magazine. As for the feature articles... I dunno how it works exactly. Do the mags pay Volks and WSC for the right to cover their kits? Or do Volks and WSC have to pay for page space? I'm inclined to think it's the latter, but I don't know for sure.

Post Reply