Questions about book 21 & 22

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Falk
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Questions about book 21 & 22

Post by Falk » Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:11 pm

There are already some questions about those books in another topic, but the discussions goes on on something else so I start another.

I don't really understand everything about about those different chevaliers episodes.

Why that parallel between the "ugly small women" and Build ?
The women is a human on which Brapa made some experience right ?
Whose that "god" stricking her with a lightning ? Atropos ?
And if the women gets striked by a lightning, is it because she's now considered being a fatima ?
The small dragon with 4 legs is Suezou right ? As "god" calls him Swe.
If so who's that big LED Dragon acompanying the fatima's spirit to heavens ?
What does the drawing of At' and Clotho on him mean ? They ARE this Dragon ? Are there several LEDs, the big one being the "old" Suezou who reminds At' and CLotho, the small one a new one ? I'm lost :p

And when does this happens to Build ? When the Jagd fights in english book 19 ?
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Post by Hydra Mirage » Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:15 pm

I think that she is Atropos.
Suezou still accompanying here.

Wasn't she granted one wish when she agreed to look after the dragon ?

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Post by Poseidal » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:16 pm

No, that woman is the kidnapped fiance of Mondo Hotas. Her wish was to see his face once more, and then she gave her life to save his. I think she was looking after the infant LED in the same way Atropos did, just on the verge of it's maturity, although the last bit is speculation.

Build is fixed by Morard and appears fine later in EN22, she is damaged in EN19 by the Jagt. I believe she's having a vision from the future, but again, that last bit is speculation.

As for Atropos' wish, it is to be engulfed by the flames of the LED to free herself of the world with whoever else wishes when the time comes, which was when Colus VI liberated the Joker worlds.

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Re: Questions about book 21 & 22

Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:27 pm

Falk wrote:There are already some questions about those books in another topic, but the discussions goes on on something else so I start another.
Okay, shoot!
I don't really understand everything about about those different chevaliers episodes.
Yeah, I can understand that, it is kinda complicated.
Why that parallel between the "ugly small women" and Build ?
The women is a human on which Brapa made some experience right ?
Yes, that woman was Mondo's fiancee, a human.
There wasn't really a prallel between Build and that woman, more like Build was dreaming about the future of Fatimas. If you notice when the scene switches back to the present in Morard's lab, build is in suspended animation, but her body has mutated to look like the "fatima" of her dream. Interesting, no? I think that this dream was a warning about the potential future of Fatima if the powers that be in the galaxy don't allow them to evolve as they should...if humans keep restricting fatimas natural evolution, then the result will be a devolution which will turn fatima into a threat to mankind, as in Build's prophetic dream...
Whose that "god" stricking her with a lightning ? Atropos ?
Don't know. This part is unclear. Atropos certainly appears to Suezo and tells him not to raise the girl from the dead, because she sacrificed her life for her Fiancee's, raising her would maker her death meaningless. But I have no idea who sent the lightning. Probably Suezo did. Such things are childs play to a dragon.

And if the women gets striked by a lightning, is it because she's now considered being a fatima ?
Not at all. She was struck by lightning because it was her wish....she was sacrificing her life to destroy Brapa and his creations to save Mondo and Lotte. The lightning striking the girl gave it the power to accomplish this task...or something like that.

The small dragon with 4 legs is Suezou right ?
Yes.
As "god" calls him Swe.
Well, I don't know if it was "god" but it most certainly was Atropos.
If so who's that big LED Dragon acompanying the fatima's spirit to heavens ?
That was Suezo. He transformed into his adult form to escort her. Or perhaps that was the original Suezo, and the one who was with the girl was Suezo's reincarnated "offspring" One of those two are the answer here.
What does the drawing of At' and Clotho on him mean ?
Not sure. Probably because Suezo was raised by Atropos and loved her dearly. Perhaps in the future, Clotho and Suezo will get along just as well.
They ARE this Dragon ?
I highly doubt that.
Are there several LEDs, the big one being the "old" Suezou who reminds At' and CLotho, the small one a new one ? I'm lost :p
Yes, thats possible.

You see, when a Dragon "dies" it doesn't really die, so much as its physical form gets too old and worn to continue on. The essence/spirit that is the true Dragon gets "reborn" into a new physical body, that has to evolve over a thousand years or so to reach adulthood. Thus, it is the same dragon simply reborn into a new body. So yes, even if this is a "new" LED Dragon, its still Suezo.
A memory of the old Dragon remains, however and this happens in the Emperor Rescue mission where Sopp is with Suezo and Suezo's parent appears to both of them and talks to Sopp. Confusing...certainly, but these are mythological creatures here...normal rules simply do not apply to them. :) (I know, lame excuse, but its the only one I've got)
And when does this happens to Build ? When the Jagd fights in english book 19 ?
Good guess! Thats exactly what happened. When Aisha brought Build's broken body to Morard, they mentioned that Parthenon caused this damage while co-piloting the Jagd.
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Post by Falk » Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:14 pm

Thanks, that's much clearer now^^

Do we know what happens to Atropos and Clotho after they die/disapear ?
Cuz' Laki becomes a deity, a god, or merges with Amaterasu, well something like that, but what about the other two ?

And yup', this story about several LED Dragon is very confusing...
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Post by Rubel Colus » Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:29 am

AT + CH = GateKeepers

Why's several LED Dragon confusing? It's like what NSG said, the dragon's physical body is still limited by the world it is in, thats why there's a need to change it every few thousand years. So they are infact the same LED Dragon with all its memories. Only thing is - during the 'young Suezo' stage, his 'spirit' leaves the 3rd dimension to rest on the higher dimensions, and thus the young is 'dumb' :roll: and extremely dependant on a human 'host'.
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Post by Tomexe » Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:53 am

Only thing is - during the 'young Suezo' stage, his 'spirit' leaves the 3rd dimension to rest on the higher dimensions, and thus the young is 'dumb' and extremely dependant on a human 'host'.
Something similar to this seems to be happening with Amaterasu himself, born in to a human form (forms?) he cannot wield all his power all at once- or even seem to remember more than hints of his pre-birth existance as a multi-dimensional being. It seems he wont be fully unified, and have full recall, untill JC7777.

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Post by Falk » Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:55 pm

Mmh, erm, euh... what are the gatekeepers ? :D
From heaven ?

Also, a few more questions :twisted:
Concerning the Chivalries episode where Sharie Randers (Randers or Landers ?) cuts her arm, didn't someone said somewhere on this board that other knights retired from FEMC (Spaccorn I think, maybe Aisha), are they allowed to do that ? Maybe cuz' they're some country ruller prior to be a knight ?

And when Michelle Ha Lonn fights Paison, does she die ? She stands still, but gets badly cut anyway :p Do we see her again later ?
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Post by Tomexe » Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:11 pm

Concerning the Chivalries episode where Sharie Randers (Randers or Landers ?) cuts her arm, didn't someone said somewhere on this board that other knights retired from FEMC (Spaccorn I think, maybe Aisha), are they allowed to do that ? Maybe cuz' they're some country ruller prior to be a knight ?
Sharie went off and married a lord of another country. The others, were still in various jobs in the AKD.

You could look at it as getting "kicked upstairs"-promoted out of being a knight. But Sharie left the service of Amaterasu entirely. I notice from the scans from Newtype that she has refused to replace her arm- something easily done in the Joker era, with your choice of "real" or "mechanical" replacement appendage.

Tomexe

Post by Tomexe » Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:20 pm

Well, I don't know if it was "god" but it most certainly was Atropos.
Well here is a theory.

In plate captions, and supplemental text at the back and front of the English additions, Nagano has in various places referred to Laki, AT, and Clotho as "goddesses"...

...well he might mean it literally.

Amaterasu entered this world by being born by Empress Makoto. A body he caused to be made of course (virgin birth), but none the less a flesh and blood body.

Well, what if, following the directions of the dragons, Ballance created three "vessels" in the form of fatimas that were were so perfect they were also occupied by divinities....

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Post by Rubel Colus » Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:53 pm

It seems like those who joined FEMC had vowed to serve Amat for life, so if a knight wants to quit FEMC, he/she will have to die. Sharie's heart is with Trao Ballanka, so she could never serve Amat like she vowed when she first joined FEMC (being in a dilemma between serving her master and concern over her lover). Cutting off her right arm is an action that 'fulfills her vow', that her right arm (knighthood) stays with Amat forever. She still have to die if she wants to leave FEMC, and she would have died if Amat didnt somehow hear Clotho's plea, and stopped her in time. (Wonder why Clotho suddenly comes into picture??) This is perhaps another example of knights having worse fate than commoners becoz they cannot even have the freedom to love. The cursed fate of knights.

Sharie returns to Juno, but she promised never to use her skills as a knight again (her knighthood is with Amat). If Sharie replaced her arm, then it will be meaningless to cut it in the first place. As for the other Knights, they are still in Amat's service (wonders where is Hind Kill though).

Spaccorn - left FEMC, now without a number but apparently still assisting them.
Hind Kill - left FEMC
Leopard Crystalis - left
Spinner - no more mirage number (left wing #5), but still wears the Blood Cross, stays in AKD

Michelle survived. Paison didnt even hit her vital spots, although it was a deep and huge cut, she probably gets immediate medical attention. On the other hand, Paison got a hole in the back of his head...

BTW, AT and CH will finally become the Gate Keepers (they are present in the Heavens, so i guess they're gods).
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Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:51 am

And concerning "retired" FEMC Knights, they stay in the FEMC even when "retired" they simply do not participate in battles unless its an emergency (when the Green left rebelled, one of the retired 1st gen Mirage Knights prepared to face them in battle)
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Post by Rubel Colus » Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:02 am

Anyone realise out of all those Mirage Knights that appeared in Volume 1 (Eng 1-3), only Spaccorn and Aisha are left?

Rogner - died at the hands of Vos
Lie Ex - killed by Vos
Poesche - killed by Vos
Nu Soard - killed by Decors

Suspect that we will soon be left with only Spaccorn...

Back on topic... :oops:

Actually, I dont understand what is the first episode of the Chivalries chapter trying to tell us? The main theme of the Chivalries chapter is about knighthood, but then IMO we can actually do without this first episode. Sure, it gave us a few ideas about the far future of Joker, but I feel that it doesnt really blend in well with the rest of the chapter (isnt necessary).

Also, I dont think it is simply Build's dream, but rather a reality that is fated to happen in the future. It's juz that Build was able to see/foretell this future in her 'dreams'

IMO, this episode is telling us:
- Historical events become myths and legends after a long period of time.

- Nagano's idea of 'technological' evolution is a cycle of ups and downs; and people of Joker have become so backward that it is the medieval age again.

- Seems like Brapa has similar talents like the fatima meights, or he possesses a part of diver force (Alchemy). His experiments are cruel but does it mark the beginning of an advancement of knowledge again? Can we compare Brapa with Chrome Ballanche? They are both trying their very best to make a breakthru in advancement, exploring stuff that others fear, 'playing' around with the creation of life and perhaps trying to create gods by themselves! (Is Nagano hinting at real life scenerio? With all the controversial topics surrounding biotechnology such as cloning, etc)

- History seems to repeat itself.

i got more... but forgot... :| nevermind :oops: Let's hear your comments or thoughts?
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