Questions about volumes 25/26--possible spoilers.

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John F. Moscato
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Questions about volumes 25/26--possible spoilers.

Post by John F. Moscato » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:50 pm

Hi all.

I was just able to pick-up the newest english volumes (25/26) and I was quite unnerved at just how easily the black three were able to decimate what is supposed to be the best corps of Headdliners in the Joker system.

Basically, for those of you who have read further along in the storyline... Is this just a one-time attack on Float Temple, or do the Black Three make it a routine occurrence?

Also, New Soard gets hit quite badly by Decors... Does he perish as a result of this, or does he manage to survive?

On page 27 of book 26, there is a black girl who seems to be named "Kinky." Who is she? I'm assuming she's a Mirage knight, but I don't seem to remember her.

Lastly, this is more of a comment than a question. In volume 25... Is it just me, or does Nagano seem to have an unusual amount of trouble drawing the KoG?
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Post by Rubel Colus » Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:19 pm

hehe, the Black Three episode is one of the most exciting ever. 8)

It is a one-time attack, as you can see Vos was badly wounded, and he needed about 20 years to recuperate, just in time for Majestic Stand. Only Beauty managed to remain unscathed. If they were to repeat the attack, they might die in the second attempt, and then again most importantly, there isnt any purpose for a second attack.

BTW, Vos' objective in the attack was just to see if Amat will retaliate and use his godly but 'forbidden' powers. If he does, then Vos would have no point in attacking Hathuha at all, coz Amat would interfere. Its more of a gamble - do or die thing. In the end, Vos was right in his assumption, Amat would not interfere, that is why he would proceed to build up Buchtgma and invade Hathuha.

Nu Soard badly wounded or most probably dead, both swords went thru his heart. No more mention of him after that episode, and he's not in the Grand Invasion... so prolly dead. Also, Fatima Kale probably gave first aid priority to her own master State Ballo Kaieda who was also badly wounded, and left Nu Soard to die. (Joking :roll: )

Kinky is of royal blood, a Princess of Cross, Left Wing #8. That's why Hind Kill have to protect her from harm.

Can you tell who's present at the revealing of LED Mirage / KOG?
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Post by John F. Moscato » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:03 pm

Hi Rubel.

Thanks for the insight :)

A shame that that seems to be the end of Nu Soard, I rather liked him.

As for the Black Three's attack, now I'm a little confused: what is this "forbidden power" that Amateras would use against Bos? And if indeed Amateras would have some sort of power that he could use to defeat them, why did he not use it? If anything, he seems to care greatly about preventing senseless deaths in a retaliatory strike (as he explains to Ikaruga later), but wouldn't his divine intervention have possibly saved many lives if he had intervened himself at the beginning?

Oh, two more silly questions: does Close Orbit also get fatally toasted? And who/what is that "Mirage Knight" that looks like a Qbeley?
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Post by Rubel Colus » Sun Jan 02, 2005 7:02 pm

yeah, I like Nu Soard too. :| And I remembered he was supposed to be an expert in dual swords, much like Decors. Too bad we cant see both of them in such a scene. But from this episode, we can see how adaptive and skillful Decors really is - he defeated those top knights from FEMC with ease!!

The 'forbidden' power that I mentioned is Amaterasu's godly powers. When Rince appeared, didnt Vos said something like 'If you've use your true powers, I would've died in a sec'?

I'll try to explain it as best as I can, it might actually be my own opinion on the matter. Anyway, it is forbidden because by merely using it, it defies the nature and laws of the Joker Universe and therefore, would bring great disturbance to the Joker world. There were several times when Sopp used his godly powers, esp when he was much younger, but after being grown up, he seemed to have stopped using them except on himself (to regenerate after death, etc). Or rather, he used his godly powers in a way which is within the limits of the Joker Universe, his skills are 'similar' to those that can be executed by other humans too (therefore not breaking the laws of the physical world). No doubt that he is already awfully powerful even when he limits himself :roll: .

Remember when Sopp wanted to revive Chrome Ballanche? Also, I'm not too sure but it seems Laki was not in total control of the situation when she used Seventh Fall on Shaft and Mel Zoom. Imagine the repercussions these actions could've caused. Well, in fact, the mere existence of Sopp and Laki will affect the Joker universe greatly.

Now the problem is - clearly Vos was no match for Rince, but still, Rince was unable to kill Vos! Furthermore, Vos was able to hide himself so that Amat was unable to 'detect' and find the whereabouts of Vos. Thus, this is a very awkward situation becoz a god could do nothing to a human!

Also, regarding Amat being 'caring' - this is highly debatable if you remember that he is in fact born without emotions. All his reactions are programmed (like a fatima's), although it is true that he had truely felt sad for the first time at the death of Ballanche, but he is definitely still learning (slow learner). I would say his decision for not attacking Buchtgma is becoz he is very rational - perhaps 'too' rational much like a machine! He does not plan on revenge for his dead Mirage Knights. As a result, it turns out that becoz of his rational decisions, he becomes a very good ruler. (It is stated in some Characters book that becoz of his rational character, Grees prospered becoz the people are satisfied with his fair system of taxation and there was no or little bribery or favoritism? ** from memory dont quote me on this =X )

No news of Orbit, not even for Grand Invasion, meaning he's probably dead? Quebeley = Left Wing #11 Major Broase (sp?). There was a discussion of him here recently, check the threads.

Wow long winded me :oops:
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Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:34 am

WARNING: MAJOR SPOILERS

Highlight to read:

Confirmed dead are: Lie Ex (Killed by Vos' plasma blast)
Bester Orbit (completely disintigrated by Vos's diver powers)
Falk U Rognar (Frozen solid by Vos's Absolute Zero technique...but of course, he'll be back as we all know)

Possibly dead:
Nu Soard Graphite (Swords-to-the-heart by Decors Weissmel..though Joker medical technology can fix this, if they preserve him before brain-death)
Shinei!

Lalasa

Post by Lalasa » Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:36 am

John F. Moscato wrote:And if indeed Amateras would have some sort of power that he could use to defeat them, why did he not use it? If anything, he seems to care greatly about preventing senseless deaths in a retaliatory strike (as he explains to Ikaruga later), but wouldn't his divine intervention have possibly saved many lives if he had intervened himself at the beginning?
I always think of that pesky human idea of "free will".

Why would an immortal creature like Amaterasu argue if mayfly humans want to obliterate themselves? Amaterasu is not human. He'll never be human. Using human's rationalization and reasoning isn't really fair on him. (I'm trying not to remember that this is all created by a human being...just to get the technicalities out of the way.)

It's kind of like asking a human scientist his feelings on a self-destructing strain of the Ebola virus. He'll intervene if he thinks the virus is of some use to himself personally, but other than that? It's deadly, it's stupid, it's also terribly beautiful in its former reproducing efficiency and structure.

The scientist will very likely feel some sadness that it's destroying itself and as a scientist he won't ever know what it could do because it is destroying itself. He'll then continue on his way to his other projects after carefully neutralizing what's left of the virus.

The above is a very rough analogy. It probably only makes sense to me, but I don't know how to be more clearer than that. Sorry. But we all know Amaterasu won't let things deteriorate that far like the scientist would since humans at least are able to inspire love, loyalty and imagination unlike the virus.

S

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Post by Falk » Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:07 am

About what Nu Soard just said :

Highlight to read^^

Bester Orbit died ?
Where is it mentionned ? In the discussion between Amat' and Sarion ? That'd be why Sarion's upset, cuz' Orbit was his teacher ?
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Post by John F. Moscato » Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:56 pm

Hi Lalasa.

But if what you said were true about him simply being indifferent about whether "mayfly humans" wanted to kill each other or not , why would he later go on to conquer the Joker worlds at all? And for that matter, why have a personal corps of humans? Why be the ruler of Delta Belune? To be the administrator over pesky mortals?

Granted, his decision later in FSS to conquer the Joker system MAY stemn from a growth in his emotional process... Or maybe motivated by forces we don't yet understand. Somehow, I believe that though his motivations may seem rather mechanical and calculating to some, he actually does care about the human condition; but even as all-seeing readers, we still have yet to understand his true motivations... Which is what makes it compelling to read :)

As for him not wanting to use his powers to stop the black three... Isn't he already using his "divine" power to emprison those satanic monsters inside Hell Tower? From what we saw in the Emperor Rescue Mission, his power over the seal in the tower is constant, and was only "broken" when he lost his powers temporarily on Both... I don't see why he couldn't just "throw" the black three into the well with the satans and be done with them :wink:
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Post by Rubel Colus » Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:59 pm

Black Three = strong but still humans, aka naturals
SATAN = not naturals within the Joker world
Gods = not naturals

Sopp's interference with the SATAN is understandable, becoz they are not considered 'naturals' and they will not stop at whatever they do, they will end up upsetting the balance of the universe, i.e. they dunno when to stop, or they dont even care.

Black Three are normal humans, no matter how strong and powerful they are. So if Amat feels that its justifiable to drop them into the well, what about Magdall, Mugumika or Empress of Flame? How to justify who to send off? Not forgetting that abruptly removing matter from the world could upset the balance of the physical universe and end up having serious repercussions (explained in Vos vs Mikoto scene).

What I see is, Sopp dont want to affect the world directly, as much as possible. The Mirage Knights are just an extension of his arms. Sopp will make use of humans to affect the world instead, thus reducing the impact of his direct actions. If humans can do his tasks, then it must be well within the 'limits' of the universe isnt it?

Analogy: Imagine you are a divine being, looking upon the world. It is similar to a person playing chess, the chess pieces are the humans. You can chose to play by the rules, let the chess pieces wipe each other off, or you can just sweep the pieces off the board thereby upsetting the rules of the game. Which would you chose?
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Post by Hydra Mirage » Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:47 pm

Excellent analogy Rubel !

Perhaps Amaterasu is planning a few steps ahead...
ie. allowing Vos to grow in power in order to justify the forthcoming wars and further expansion of the AKD.

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Post by John F. Moscato » Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:55 pm

I'd grind all the chess pieces up into powder and serve them with pasta :D

Seriously though, your explanation seems to pretty much clarify everything now. I guess the "Satans" are more or less god-like creatures, similar to Amateras himself? For the longest time, I thought that they were simply creatures from another world.. Perhaps even the same species as the mythical "Vagires" (Valkyries?) that originate in the Stant system that the AKD will go to war with later.

Is it just me, or was the account of the war with the Stant system "removed" from the english translation of the timeline?
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Post by Rubel Colus » Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:09 pm

John F. Moscato wrote:I'd grind all the chess pieces up into powder and serve them with pasta :D
Ok, its official that you dont play by the rules, and thus we can classify u as being the 'evil' SATAN! :twisted: Let's keep John inside a little jar. :twisted:
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Post by Poseidal » Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:39 pm

I think the Vagires from stant and those creatures are the same, as they have the same appearance as in the 'myth' about the ARCH, who incidently made an apearance when the same creatures were getting into the naganoverse.

btw. what was with the bit with the angelic looking Specter and Potar after Sopp gets back from the emperor rescue, and was taken out of the final version? They're in the FSS Outline book 157. What kind of creature is Potar (apart from Fatima).

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Post by WayS'Lo' » Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:58 pm

Ive wandered about that too actually... I always thought they were meant to be completely different beings. We already know what true Spector looks like, and he doesnt lok like that. On another note, doesnt that mean Potar KNOWS Spector's true identity? Its been suggested that she does and she doesnt at various points in the manga, and having been revived from death herself, like Poseidal asks, what does that make Potar?

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Post by Rubel Colus » Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:21 am

Potar is a damaged fatima - she's gone bonkers ever since her last battle, and seems like they never 'repaired' her brains (is it even possible?).

BTW Poseidal, I think the other character you see standing beside Spector is actually ARCH Water Dragon (Suire).
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