Maximum creation (saved from WaxTrax)

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Falk
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Maximum creation (saved from WaxTrax)

Post by Falk » Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:08 pm

Here's the whole topic about the conception of Maximum, cuz' it's quite a genetic mess. With great contribution from Nobuko (japanese mother^^) who translated the newtype where Meeth is revealing all the story about Maximum to Kaien (but we have not seen her since a while (unless she has another pseudo ?)).

Surely contains heavy spoilers !
From: n/a n/a

Hi, I'm looking for information on Maximum Holtsfer Ballanche Kaien (Or is that the other way around?) and any images of him. Please. I need any and all because I want to cosplay him, but I'm not sure I want to do that very militaristic/quasi kimono ensemble he's often seen in.

I'd also like to know how to pronounce his fatima's name. Is it SSL? Or Sheshel? Or...? Is SSL actually Auxo? Is there any pictures of her? I could've sworn Auxo showed up with Max. Ah well, I'm probably wrong, but that's why I'm here.

Oisa
From: Nu Soard Graphite

Maximum Holtfors Ballanche Kaien is correct.

I'm sure someone can post a picture of him for you, but most of them are him in that fancy kimono (I like that outfit actually) but you could always do the standard Mirage Knight outfit and put Max's number all over it. (standard Mirage outfit is easy. Get some Naval Officer uniforms and modify them. They work perfectly, myself and my roomate did it a few years back)

As far as his fatima is concerned, her name is indeed S.S.L. which actually stands for "Solid State Logic". She is one of the first 4 Fatima created for MH control by fatima meight Lithium Ballanche. She is not Auxo. I believe Auxo was another Lithium Ballanche creation named Focuslight, whom Chrome Ballanche modified and re-dubbed her Auxo for Kaien. (At least I think it was Focuslight, I could be wrong)
From: Tomexe

Auxo IS Focuslight?

I thought Ballanchine just used some of Focuslight's DNA in Auxo (and also Lachesis)?
From: Nu Soard Graphite

>Auxo IS Focuslight?
>
>I thought Ballanchine just
>used some of Focuslight's DNA
>in Auxo (and also Lachesis)?

That may be the case. I'm not sure. We used to have some discussion on that topic here, but it was lost during the crash. Ah well...
Tomexe

How accurate do you think this list by the "Joker Intelligance Service" http://www2.odn.ne.jp/ihatov/JIA/FSSlists/Fatima.html ? He lists Auxo and Focuslight as different beings.
From: Nu Soard Graphite

>How accurate do you think this
>list by the "Joker
>Intelligance Service"
>http://www2.odn.ne.jp/ihatov/J
>IA/FSSlists/Fatima.html ?
>He lists Auxo and Focuslight
>as different beings.

Yes, well Nagano also lists them as seperate beings in Book 11 in his master list of Fatimas. You might be right about him merely using some of Lithium Ballanches Data on Focuslight for Auxo, but I remember reading somewhere that Auxo was a remodelled fatima. I'll see if I can track down the source, but if it was the old Wax Trax board, its long gone.
From: Oisa

Ah, great. My Japanese translater is on vacation (That's not a joke.) so I can't get anyone to do any translating on line. Thank you for the info on Max though and SSL's actual names.

All I know is that I'm not typing his entire name again.

*randomly from various online Japanease sites*

Ballace...Balace...Ballane...
Who is that as the Gross Sister on the cover of the English manga's 18?
She looked a bit like Intercity...
Oisa
From: Falk

On 7/10/2004 3:19:15 AM, n/a n/a wrote:
>
>Hi, I'm looking for
>information on Maximum
>Holtsfer Ballanche Kaien (Or
>is that the other way around?)
>and any images of him.
>Please. I need any and all
>because I want to cosplay him,
>but I'm not sure I want to do
>that very militaristic/quasi
>kimono ensemble he's often
>seen in.

You can also cosplay him in this outfit : http://knightclub.cool.ne.jp/figure/max/max1.html
From: Oisa

Holy cow he's in a skirt! *coughs* That's incredibly sexy...

Thank you very much! This'll very likely be easier since my hair is exactly that length and color, though no where near that luxurious...and I have the skirt, tights and shoes for it! *cheers*

Hm...look at that sword, it's as tall as he is.

Oisa
From: Keiwan

I have a question about Max. Since Ballanche and Kaien are part of his name does that mean that he's related to either of them? If not then why is it part of his name, did either of them teach him something i.e. Kaien teaching max his swordamanship and giving him his knightmaster title.
From: Owen

Kaien is his father and a Ballanche fatima is his mother. I can't remember which fatima though... Auxo or Queen are my first two guesses.

Someone posted the origins of Max and the other Kaien kiddies here a while ago. Can anyone re-post that little gem?
From: Nobuko

According to the volume 11, I mean the Japanese one, Maximum's father is Kaien, and his mother is Meeth Silver Ballence.
On page46, Meeth told Kaien that she transplanted her ovary in Auxo, and asked Auxo that she wanted to have Kaien's baby, and when an egg got fertilized, she moved that egg into her womb, which had been replaced to a fatima's one.
Weird, indeed, but Meeth herself confessed that she might be crazy... *sigh*
From: Owen

That sure is weird. I don't remember hearing that Meeth was involved. Very interesting... :)
From: Falk

Oh yup', weird.
As Keiwan I had some problem to exactly understand everything abnout the Kaien's family, and here's a graphic I did after everyone here at WaxTrax explained it :

(ahem, this internet webspace is down^^)

So where I wrote "Artificial Ovum made by chrome ballanche" is wrong.

Can fatimas have child normally ?
If not, this would be the reason why Meeth transplanted her ovary, which gives Auxo the possibility to have a child.
But why does Meeth would have replaced her womb with a fatima womb ?
A human womb may not be adapted to a "half-fatima" child ?

Well I'll have to edit this graphic^^
From: Nu Soard Graphite

>Oh yup', weird.
>As Keiwan I had some problem
>to exactly understand
>everything abnout the Kaien's
>family, and here's a graphic I
>did after everyone here at
>WaxTrax explained it :
>
>
>
>So where I wrote "Artificial Ovum made
>by chrome ballanche" is wrong.
>
>Can fatimas have child normally ?
>If not, this would be the reason why
>Meeth transplanted her ovary, which
>gives Auxo the possibility to have a
>child.
>But why does Meeth would have replaced
>her womb with a fatima womb ?
>A human womb may not be adapted to a
>"half-fatima" child ?
>
>Well I'll have to edit this graphic^^

No, no! Its not completely wrong. The theory/data on the egg was provided by Chrome Ballanche. Meeth made some adjustments, and used herself as a donor, implanting her womb (or a womb) into Auxo and Kaien inadvetantly impregnated her.

There is a scene of Ballanche handing Meeth the data on Maximum, so he still had quite a bit to do with it.
From: Nu Soard Graphite

As to the question "can fatima normally have children" the answer is a big NO. Fatima are made barren on purpose, otherwise the women of the galaxy may just well rise up in revolt. As of now, they tolerate fatima (ever beautiful and unchanging) because fatima can not have children, and thus headdliners who want heirs must marry a normal human female. If fatima could get pregnant normally, there be no reason for any headdliner to marry a normal woman.

This is the problem with Lader VIII...he has no heirs (that I'm aware of) because he married his fatima...no son to take the throne, thus the throne passes back to the Phillmore branch of the Imperial family.

Chrome Ballanche has designed two fatima specifically to bear children (Queen, to bear Kaien and Lachesis to be a mate for Sop) and has violated galaxy law for this, thus those are some pretty big secrets. (well, it doesn't really matter, now that he's dead, but the Joker Galaxy council could very well order the destruction of Queen and Lackey if it were to ever come out)
From: Oisa

>>So where I wrote "Artificial Ovum made by chrome ballanche" is wrong.
>>
>>Can fatimas have child normally ? If not, this would be the reason why Meeth transplanted her ovary, which gives Auxo the possibility to have a child. But why does Meeth would have replaced her womb with a fatima womb ? A human womb may not be adapted to a "half-fatima" child ?
>
>No, no! Its not completely wrong. The theory/data on the egg was provided by Chrome Ballanche. Meeth made some adjustments, and used herself as a donor, implanting her womb (or a womb) into Auxo and Kaien inadvetantly impregnated her.

*massively confused* How the heck do you inadvertently impregnate someone? Either you did or you didn't...unless Kaien was drunk at the time and Auxo being the good little fatima that she is...took advantage of the situation... Uh...*stears away from that line of thought*

Hm...how old is Max? I thought he was the youngest of the children? I've always wondered about Max's parentage...so that family tree helped quite a bit. Ooooh, so he's siblings with Magdall. *lots of question marks going up* So how'd Magdall become Queen/Princess or emperor or ruler of...dang it! I can't remember that country/kingdom at the moment.

Wasn't Dr. Chrome also the Lord of Fates? I thought "Fates" itself was a noble surname? And where did Holtsfor came into play? For that matter why is it all capitolized? Or am I nit-picking?

Oisa
From: Falk

>*massively confused* How the heck do
>you inadvertently impregnate someone?
>Either you did or you didn't...unless
>Kaien was drunk at the time and Auxo
>being the good little fatima that she
>is...took advantage of the situation...
>Uh...*stears away from that line of
>thought*

Mmh my guess is that they surely "had some fun" without knowing that Meeth B Silver transplanted fer womb into Auxo.

I can't help for all the other questions :/^^
From: A J

I just read 21,22 (and other than being uber confused by Nagano-san's time-hopping tendancies in 21), he does explain how Magdall became heir to the Hathua Republics Union in 22. It isn't based on blood =. The heir is chosen based on Diver powers. That she's got the blood of the line is apparently just coincidental.

Course someone can correct me on this cause I read it really late last night and I don't have my manga with me right now...
From: Nu Soard Graphite

>
>*massively confused* How the heck do
>you inadvertently impregnate someone?
>Either you did or you didn't...unless
>Kaien was drunk at the time and Auxo
>being the good little fatima that she
>is...took advantage of the situation...
>Uh...*stears away from that line of
>thought*

Well, Kaien is a well known lecher and fatimas are built for pleasure as well as business, so I'm sure you can put two and two together...

The thing is, Kaien didn't know that Meeth did this (implanted a womb and egg) when he slept with Auxo and impregnated her, thus it was done "inadvertantly" on Kaien's part.

>Hm...how old is Max? I thought he was
>the youngest of the children? I've
>always wondered about Max's
>parentage...so that family tree helped
>quite a bit. Ooooh, so he's siblings
>with Magdall. *lots of question marks
>going up* So how'd Magdall become
>Queen/Princess or emperor or ruler
>of...dang it! I can't remember that
>country/kingdom at the moment.

Max is the youngest of Kaien's brood. In the current timeline (J.C. 3030) he hasn't even been born yet. Auxo (who's preggers with Max) and Meeth are still in the hands of the enemy. I wonder who rescues them, or how they escape...

Madgall becomes the next "Shaman of Atoll" because she is a direct descendant of the Empress of Flame, being the grandaughter of Skinzu and Princess Yan. She's next in line for the throne. The country is Hathua Republics Union.


>Wasn't Dr. Chrome also the Lord of
>Fates? I thought "Fates" itself was a
>noble surname? And where did Holtsfor
>came into play? For that matter why is
>it all capitolized? Or am I
>nit-picking?
>
>Oisa

Yep, Ballanche is/was Duke of Fates. Since he's the last of his line and has no heirs, he designated Meeth as his heir (Meeth originaly being an orphan rescued by Kaien and adopted by Ballanche) and so now Meeth is the Duchess of Fates.

I have no idea why HOLTFORS is capitalized or even what it signifies.

Anyone?

Beuller?
From: Tomexe

Getting Auxo pregnant required trasplanting a womb too?

I thought from the introduction that fatimas were just infertile. The organs were there, they just were non-functional.
From: Nu Soard Graphite

>Getting Auxo pregnant required
>trasplanting a womb too?
>
>I thought from the
>introduction that fatimas were
>just infertile. The organs
>were there, they just were
>non-functional.

Aparently, they are created without menstruation. It is unclear if they have a true womb or simply non-functioning organs to fill the space in the body. I would assume they would be non-functioning. Thus a meight who wanted one of her fatima to produce children would probably have to custom design her with this purpose in mind (like Queen and Lachesis) or make adjustments in order for the fatima to accomadate a fetus the way Meeth "adjusted" Auxo...
From: Tomexe

>>Getting Auxo pregnant required
>>trasplanting a womb too?
>>
>>I thought from the
>>introduction that fatimas were
>>just infertile. The organs
>>were there, they just were
>>non-functional.
>
>Aparently, they are created
>without menstruation. It is
>unclear if they have a true
>womb or simply non-functioning
>organs to fill the space in
>the body. I would assume they
>would be non-functioning.
>Thus a meight who wanted one
>of her fatima to produce
>children would probably have
>to custom design her with this
>purpose in mind (like Queen
>and Lachesis) or make
>adjustments in order for the
>fatima to accomadate a fetus
>the way Meeth "adjusted"
>Auxo...

Well "adjusting" Auxo, if she had the basic hardware, could be as little providing a supply of hormones (like a reverse Norplant) and a fertile ova. Meeth provided one of her own ova.

Now if Meeth also "modified" the ova then its possible that Max has two mothers. Meeth could of replaced the ova's nucleus with nucleaic DNA from a stem cell from Auxo. But the mitachondrial DNA would still be from Meeth. Given some of Max's special abilities this could be likely.

So. How much was Auxo a willing participant in this? Did she want to have a kid? Or did Meeth just do this to her when she was in for a service sometime, to satisfy her own desires to mate with Kain without Auxo's say in the matter?
From: Nobuko

I don't know whether this would give you enough information, but anyway, I try...

Here is the translation from the FSS volume 11 Japanese version pages 46 to 57, just before the hot war.

Page46:
The second frame from the bottom:
Meeth: Uncle Kaien!
Kaien: Meeth, stay in the safe place!
M: Listen! I put my ovary into Auxo's body!
K: What...did you say now?
M: I said! I asked Auxo that I wanted your child!

Page48:
Meeth: I will never ever be able to beat a fatima! There is no way I can win over Auxo, who was born and made only for you, Uncle Kaien!
Kaien: Meeth....
The battle continued... some battle talk between Decors Weissmel and East.
Meeth's confession kept on.
Meeth: Uncle Kaien, you are a pure-blood Knight. Your children must be a Knight or Diver, it's dead set. However, if you take ordinary methods, there is no possibility to succeed your blood. It is because your sperms kill ordinary ova.
From: Nobuko

Page50:
Meeth:In the case of Magdall and Depre, two eggs got fertilized with two sperms. Those eggs would have been eliminated because Javo's body must have rejected them, but, those eggs somehow controled their power reduced to survive, and they grew as ordinary embryos.
According to the records Concord left, Jabo's pregnant was perfectly usual one... so, those power controled embryos would not be expected to have those special abilities
as a Knight or a Diver. They were expected to be born as a very oridnary babies...
But, at the very moment they were born, their blood from Cluster Empire Farus Die Kannan released!
I don't know why, though... Uncle Kaien, you must have known why. You hadn't had any children for hundreds years. But these two children...

The first Hyper Chevalier Svas was able to
have his own child with the help of Atoll's medium and Lithium Ballanche, by weakening his pure blood power, but your pure blood is much stronger than him!

Page 51:
Meeth: It is because, you are the one, the natural pure blood Knight, who have been left in the care of the dragon for 10,000 years, and your parents were Knights of the cluster Empire Farus Die Kannan!
Uncle Kaine, your real father was the Hyper Chevalier Assaram Skins, who was 2.5 m tall and was the strongest Knight in the Empire!
And your mother was the Princess Yarnn Vatshu Kastenpo, and the Empress of Flame named you as Kaien Vatshu Kastenpo....

But Uncle Kaine, it is not all in your case! Beside the pure blood of the Farus Die Kannan's Knights' you also have very strong developmental antibody and special worm looped DNA.

Those looped DNA keeps cell division endlessly, in other words, your body gets old very very slowly.
From: Nobuko

Page52:
Meeth: Your thymus doesn't stop growing in order to maintain and keep the Empire's DNA and looped DNA, and it produces repairing antibody all through your life, and holds every aging phenomenon to progress.

It is the ability of Fatima's! It's a precious treasure you were given from
Fatima Queen, who became a surrogate mother
to receive you as the very strong embryo. Fatimas' bodies were based on the DNA from Svans, therefore they easily get along with each other.

Uncle Kaine, you borrowed a fatima's womb to be born, and I also borrowed a fatima's body to bear your child.

Kaien: Meeth... you spoke so much about me....

Page53:
Meeth: Because! I love you so much... I can't think anything buy you.... I just wanted to know you more than anybody else does...

I put my ovary into Auxo, and I made my egg fertilized with your frozen sperm.
But (if I took the ordinary method), your sperm would kill my egg, so....
My ovary was somehow modified to produce sepcial programmed eggs.
That special program, to bear the strong Farus Die Kannan Empire's blood, and to make it become an embryo, then in the process of cell division, to keep changing the egg's DNA all the time...
The fertilezed egg was laid for 10 years... Why? It's because I needed that time to make my body get used to the womb...

Page54:
Meeth: Yes, my womb was replaced to a fatima's type, because if not, my baby wouldn't be able to grow here.

The first baby of Chivarlies in the history is here now....

Kaine: Meeth, you are crazy..., not sane

Meeth: I don't care! You saved my life in that village! I was supposed to die being shot by a solder there!

Page55:
Meeth: My life was yours from that moment! And, since you have saved my life, you have to look after me!

Isn't it the meaning of saving somebody else? You took me, and ignore me, that is you just toy with my life!

Kaien pulled his sword out...

Meeth: At first, I just liked you so much... But then, after a while, I became confused whether I wanted your baby because I can't get you...
From: Nobuko

Page56:
Meeth: Or I just lost my control because I wanted to complete my reserch so badly...

An ax of a MH flew over, and Kaien cut it in half with his sword.
The baby, Maximum, sensed something even though he was still
in Meeth's womb.

Page57:
Kaien: I told you it's not safe here.
You never know what would fly in.
Meeth: Uncle Kaien....
Kaien showed his sword to Meeth.
Kaien: Take it.
Meeth: Uncle Kaien! No! Don't go! Don't die!
Kaien touched Meeth's nape, and stunned her.

Then scene went back to the battle fields....

Since my science knowledge is quite limited, I'm sure I make a lot of miskates here and there, but I just hope you can grasp the meaning of the conversations.

As for Auxo's willingness about having a baby, it is not mentioned in the book at all, and I have no idea about it.

Regarding the sterility of fatimas, I think Ballanche mentioned it somewhere and he said that of course fatimas can bear babies, but considering those negative feelings from human beings, fatimas are modified not to have babies.
From: Nu Soard Graphite

Ah! So Meeth replaced her own womb with a custom designed womb (similar to that of a fatima) so she could bear Max during his gestation period.

Apparently Auxo was merely used for the fertilization.

I see.
From: Falk

Wow, what a genetic mess ! :þ

Thanks for this translation Nobuko !

I don't need a full translation, just an explanation, so anyone who knows can answer, but why does Kaien dies ?

He's got pure blood, worm DNA and everything blablablah, and the way he dies is quite quick and unexpected.
Is Vos Djasforst (well you see who^^) so powerful ?
Or does Kaien knew he has to die ? (as Meeth tells him not to go, not to die etc)
If so, why does he had to die ?
From: Soard Graphite

>Wow, what a genetic mess ! :þ
>
>Thanks for this translation
>Nobuko !
>
>I don't need a full
>translation, just an
>explanation, so anyone who
>knows can answer, but why does
>Kaien dies ?
>
>He's got pure blood, worm DNA
>and everything blablablah, and
>the way he dies is quite quick
>and unexpected.
>Is Vos Djasforst (well you see
>who^^) so powerful ?
>Or does Kaien knew he has to
>die ? (as Meeth tells him not
>to go, not to die etc)
>If so, why does he had to die
>?

Pure Blood, worm DNA and all that doesn't mean "Immortal" (like Sop) but merely makes him super-powerful. Dis Vosdjasforth is superpowerful because he was exposed to the water of life and his powers were exponentially increased because of it...and he was already one of Joker's most powerful divers when he was alive.

Kaien knew he was going to die because he has (vast) Diver potential and he could see his fate coming a mile away. Megumika knew the same. I guess Kaien realised there was nothing he could do against a Diver as powerful as Vos, so he tried to protect Meg as well as he could (though he knew it was useless) but his death was at hand...
From: Falk

Ha m'kay, thanks.

Well I'll just take it that way and won't ask myself more question, cuz' written fate is one of the thing I don't like much in stories, as well as time travel (like book 5 of the manga BLAME! if anyone read it).

Héhé, I just realize it (...), but FSS is all about a written fate, and in fact I don't like that at all :þ
You know some believe in fate, some in chaos theory, well I'm part of those who believe in chaos theory.

In the case of Kaien, I would simply take a plane, well an MH, and fly far away from where I'm supposed to die...
It's as simple as that ! :p
But I guess fate would make that the MH is out of fuel, that I can't find the key to open the MH door in my right pocket, cuz' for some unknown reason I put it in my left pocket this day, etc etc :þ
From: Tomexe

Aww. Thats sad how poor Auxo got used like that. So only Queen and Lachesis get to become mothers...
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Post by Tachyon » Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:53 pm

Thanks so much for posting this for us, Falk.
If you don't like the news then go make some of your own.

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Post by Rubel Colus » Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:59 am

Ms Nobuko had done an awesome job translating this portion of JP Vol 11. Wonder if she visits this site?

To summurize on how Max is created:

1. Chrome Ballanche designed his 46th masterpiece, codenamed Maximum and passed the blueprint to Meeth.
2. Meeth alters her own ovary so that they produce specially coded ova.
3. Meeth transplanted her own ovary (ovaries?) to Auxo and it was fertilized by Kaien.
4. Meeth repeatedly alters the codes of the fertilized egg at various stages, and in small steps. During this time, the zygote had been kept in statis for 10 years. [Thus the fertilization should be around the year 3020]
5. Meeth transplanted a fatima womb into herself. During the same 10 years, she had been trying to let her body get adapted to a fatima womb.
6. The zygote is finally transplanted back into Meeth's body in 3030.


Why need a fatima womb? Coz Kaien received some fatima genes from his surrogate mother Queen. He can be considered a part-fatima, coupled with the reason that he's a pure blood, he had been very unsuccessful in trying to father children. All his children will inherit some of the fatima traits - that includes, Depre, Magdall and Max. It is said that Depre and Magdall's growth is so slow that even Max, who is born much later, will out-grow them (unconfirmed). Depre and Magdall are natural borns (more secrets to their births i suspect?) compared to Max who had undergone intensive gene-alteration.

Why fatima womb can work? Coz all fatimas can be traced back to the first four fatis, and they are directly created from the genes of Ned Swans.

Regarding the Atoll Empress (or Shaman) position, it is not determined by hereditary, background, or the level of power she possess. It is determined only by the current Shaman's appointment, nothing else. The current Shaman names the successor and pass on her 'knowledge' or 'memory' of the past history since the AD times. This 'knowledge' or 'memory' is not passed by word of mouth, rather it is somewhat of a 'sense' unique only to the Shaman. The 'memory' of the past cannot be retrieved at will, but only at the time when it is necessary.

Any mistakes (esp the scientific terms) plz feel free to comment.
Looking for:
- FSS Eng Vol 1(Black cover)

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Post by Hydra Mirage » Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:25 am

I guess after reading this, you could say that an undercurrent of FSS is the merging of Man and his creation...
Amaterasu (Human) + Lachesis (Synthetic) = Kallen
Kaine (Synthetic) + Meeth (Human) = Maximum

I remember reading here somewhere about Kaine sleeping with Queen (his mother) and hence being pissed at Ballanche. What was that about ?

Anybody have any clue about URI ? Have we seen him in FSS yet ?
Could he be the huge 2 horned MH with Kallen ?

WayS'Lo'

Post by WayS'Lo' » Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:52 am

Kain isnt really synthetic, he has a natural mother and father. The thing about Queen was that for the longest time he didn;t knwo who his parents were, then he found out he was born from Queen, and logically he would assume that makes Queen his mother ( which is not *entirely* the case). Kain had asked Ballanche several times if it was possible for a Fatima to have a child, and Ballanche had always said no. So, if the man who raised you lied you into sleeping with the person who you;ve come to THINK was your mother, what would you do?
I think, but am not sure, URI is the long haired person holding the Taika staff tht tends to appear whenever Kallen does. I think the huge horned thing was an MMT. The Demon? Not sure...

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Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:04 am

Hydra Mirage wrote:
I remember reading here somewhere about Kaine sleeping with Queen (his mother) and hence being pissed at Ballanche. What was that about ?
Yes, Kaien used Queen as his fatima before Ballanche made Auxo for him. He slept with her at that time because he didn't know that Queen was his surrogate mother. He knew nothing of his parents. When he found out, he was furious with Ballanche for allowing that to happen. He vowed to kill Ballanche for it, but Amaterasu (or rather, Mel Rince) stopped him on numerous occasions.
Anybody have any clue about URI ? Have we seen him in FSS yet ?
Could he be the huge 2 horned MH with Kallen ?
Yep. He is the son of Maximum and Silvis Venus in Taika. After Max is transported to Taika, he takes on the name M.X. (after a transformation of sorts???) and marries(?) Silvis.
URI is practically divine like Kallen. He can be seen in Volume 6[JP] on page 121 with Kallen saving Lachesis from some demon-thing (possibly one of the Vagires Overlords) In volume 14[EN] it can be seen on page 29. He seems to have a "halo" in this picture, thus the clue that he is divine.
Shinei!

Lalasa

Post by Lalasa » Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:48 am

I'm glad this thing is here, I've always wanted to know how Maximum's birth occured. I can't get into Wax Trax anymore.

I wonder if Oisa is here as well, I've been trying to contact her. Maybe she'll see this. If she's here.

S
*grimacing*

Tomexe

Post by Tomexe » Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:03 pm

So are Kallen and URI the parents of the next generation of gods and goddesses?

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Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:52 pm

Tomexe wrote:So are Kallen and URI the parents of the next generation of gods and goddesses?
I think Kallen and URI are going to be the Mothe and Father of the human race....humans that eventually populate Joker. For all intents and purposes, they would be Adam and Eve.

Relaxe, this is just a theory of mine.

Ever since I read the translation to the Taika: Beyond 7777 in the english version, where it states that the descendants of Taika go on to populate the Joker galaxy eventually becoming Joker humans, I keep thinking that Amaterasu and Lachesis bear Kallen for the express purpose of marrying URI so that they can create Humans which eventually leads to the birth of her father and mother...

Can you say Paradox?

I knew you could...
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Post by Falk » Fri Nov 26, 2004 11:28 pm

Erf yeah, if the time in Taika universe really goes in the opposite of the Joker universe (as someone said somewhere here), then everything explains everything, while still being a paradox (that's damn hard to picture this out in the mind :x :wink: if ever possible).
The problem with that is that it works well if there's a beginning and an end, if the beginning on one coincides exactly with the end of the other.
But if there's only a beginning for example, what would happen for someone from Taika existing after Kallen and URI and who wants to go to Joker ?
Cuz' Kallen is the end of Joker, but also it's beginning, but what if someone's could go to joker even before it's beginning ?
Erf, this makes no sens, and my limited english is partally responsible of it^^ Don't bother replying to that^^.

I was thinking about that and a random idea came to my mind, couldn't Stant be the link between the 2 universes ? (I don't assert anything uh^^, just a random idea that may be totally wrong of by chance that may let you developpe therories about it :wink: )

And if it's totally wrong, what is the link ? Simply a long space travel ? Or somethign more "magic" ?
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Post by Rubel Colus » Sat Nov 27, 2004 12:54 am

Nu Soard Graphite wrote:Ever since I read the translation to the Taika: Beyond 7777 in the english version, where it states that the descendants of Taika go on to populate the Joker galaxy eventually becoming Joker humans, I keep thinking that Amaterasu and Lachesis bear Kallen for the express purpose of marrying URI so that they can create Humans which eventually leads to the birth of her father and mother...
Did it specifically stated that? I don't remember reading something like that. Are you referring to the part where Amaterasu, as a god, spoke to Silvis?

What I remember reading is that Amat just told Silvis that the universe or galaxy is where her future decendants will be living in - there was no mention of them living in Joker. :? Perhaps the part about the universe or galaxy is taken to mean Joker, but what I remember reading is that it didn't specify Joker, and prolly just means the Taika universe instead.
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Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:29 am

Yes, it explicitly states this in the English version.

Volume 11 (which covers the beginning of volume 5 JP) on page 47;

Amaterasu: "I am the almighty god from the Great Joker Galaxy in the Milky Way system..."

Silvis Vinus: "Galaxy....Milky Way....?"

Amaterasu: "Far in the future, it will be the home of your descendants."

It doesn't get any clearer than that.

Unless of course, the translator botched it, which is always possible.
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Post by Rubel Colus » Sat Nov 27, 2004 5:54 am

Nu Soard Graphite wrote:Yes, it explicitly states this in the English version.

Volume 11 (which covers the beginning of volume 5 JP) on page 47;

Amaterasu: "I am the almighty god from the Great Joker Galaxy in the Milky Way system..."

Silvis Vinus: "Galaxy....Milky Way....?"

Amaterasu: "Far in the future, it will be the home of your descendants."

It doesn't get any clearer than that.

Unless of course, the translator botched it, which is always possible.
Ah, it's the same as what I meant - there is no specific indication that's refering to the Joker galaxy. IMO, Amat was just answering Silvis' question - she didn't know what's a Galaxy or Milky Way, and Amat just told her the Galaxy (as in generally speaking, probably Taika Galaxy) is where her descendants will live. They will live in 'space' / galaxy.

If we wanna be picky, Milky Way is perhaps a wrong choice of word? Milky Way is infact the name of our galaxy, it is the galaxy where we're in. I would say replace it with Universe. But it didn't really change the meaning of what we're talking about above.

Of course, what you said made sense too, if we combine the two separate sentences spoken by Amat into one sentence, then it is like what you said. If we treat Amat's speech as separate sentences, then it's a whole lot of difference isn't it?
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Lalasa

Post by Lalasa » Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:21 am

I heard the Japanese version was slightly different. *points to Rubel Colus' post with Nu Soard Graphite's quotes since she's rather lazy with quoting* It just said that the people of Taika will inhabit the universe of Joker. In other words, they go into this other (Joker) universe, but not necessarily into the exact same galaxy the Joker civilization was in.

Or I could be wrong again. This was told to me about five years ago. I've since lost contact with most of my FSS friends in Japan.

Maybe due to the translators unfamiliarity with the story, they didn't realize what a mess they made when they started this project by changing a few punctuations and words around. After all, both ways, it looks "right" in this narrowed context, but seen against the entire story, this "right" translation looks...weird.

So both Rubel and Soard could be right.

S

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Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:56 pm

Amaterasu's words didn't make sense to me at first;

"...from the Great Joker Galaxy in the Mikly Way system"

Wait a second? "Mily Way" system???

however, Nagano goes on to explain a couple of pages later about the structure of the universe (which I knew about of course) and uses the term system to describe a grouping of galaxies, which is more comonly known as a cluster. In Amaterasu's speech to Silvis, he uses the term "system" rather than the more comonly used "cluster" (btw, I've never heard the term system used to describe a cluster of galaxies before, but it makes sense now that I think about it. A grouping, or cluster of planets is called a Planetary System, now istn't it)

Question is, what is the name of the galactic cluster to which our galaxy belongs? Our parent cluster is named The Local Group.

The Local Group??? (consisting of Milky Way, Andromeda, Large and Small Magellanic clouds and a couple of small unammed galaxies)

That sucks, doesn't it. I'm sure at some point in the future, we'll change it. Maybe to something like, "The Milky Way Cluster"?

Doing a little research, I've discovered that the astronomical community does indeed use the term "system" to describe a cluster of galaxies (or in the case I saw, a grouping of superclusters) so what I take this to mean is that Silvis's people will populate the cluster (or supercluster) where Joker can be found.

When it skips to the future of Taika (40,000 years later) we see the Taika people in a starship travelling between galaxies! If they have the speed to travel between galaxies, they could very easily populate a nearby cluster of galaxies, if given a few millenia with the appropriate technology.

Note also that Amaterasu calls it "The Great Joker Galaxy". What did he mean by "Great"? Did he mean it was large? The Milky Way itself is considered large by astronomical standards....our galaxy consists of between 200 and 400 billion stars...but our closest neighbor; Andromeda (M31) is larger with near 1 trillion stars.

Could Joker be a different name for Andromeda in the future of humanity? Sometimes I wonder.

Sorry for boring you guys to death, but I do like to ramble quite a bit (I'm sure you've noticed)
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