What is the Joker System's relationship to our world?

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Tomexe

What is the Joker System's relationship to our world?

Post by Tomexe » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:41 pm

Is it the same universe as ours? Or different? Is it older? Or younger?

Ballanchine was able to get a copy of Goeth's Faust to peruse and took from it the names of six of his last seven fatimas.

Untill less than 3 millennia earlier they used a calender that included the AD prefix

Everyone are homo-sapians, they even call themselves by that name.

Are these simply human colonists of another star system seperated from us by 14,000 years? (roughly since what they use as standards of measure are unknown).

I have seen it noted at times either here, or earlier on Wax Trax, that years don't correspond between our world and Joker. But how then do you explain the crossovers of names, places, and concepts?

I find the idea that the Joker world is just where humans live- and maybe only where a BRANCH of humanity lives- about 14 millenia from now. Who largely have forgotten where they came from- perhaps because there are no humans still back here by then, or maybe not even a planet here anymore?

How much would they remember of their origins when they no longer possess the origin point? When they cannot use archeology to remind them of the past- only written and otherwise recorded data.

How much historical material of earth would space colonsts be ABLE to take with them? And if then contact was lost afterward?

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Post by Falk » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:58 pm

As Lachesis finds herself in WWII when she gets lost in time with KOG, there's a link for sure.

But how exactly, I don't know.
Maybe the difference between age/time could be explain by a different galaxy, with a faster rotation movement, or something like that (as time is in relation with distance and speed)

But maybe it's clearly stated in the books and someone who knows more about FSS will answer this better than me.
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elemental

Post by elemental » Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:37 pm

The AD in Joker does not mean the same thing as our AD. From memory it stands for Amon Dul, another music reference.

I would say it is the same physical universe as ours, but when the story jumps between Taika, Joker and who-knows-where-else, who can really say? Same multiverse might be a safer bet. 8)

Can I ask why you keep calling him "Ballanchine", Tomexe? :?

WayS'Lo'

Post by WayS'Lo' » Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:33 pm

I think they are related :wink:
Kind of like colonists who forgot they were colonists, since if i remember, theres no reference to any of the planets in joker being referred to as a 'mother' planet. The years thing might just be cause there are different solar rotations for the different planets and what they decided on was some form of standardisation. Relates to what i posted in another thread.

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Post by Tachyon » Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:00 am

http://www.gearsonline.net/fss/setting/

Some (in the Joker galaxy) believe life originated on Kalamity Godarce. Others think Delta Belun.

~~PURE SPECULATION~~

Personally, I think the 2 worlds are connected. I have no proof for this other than the Earth mythology/history names that get applied to some things in the story (the name "Clotho", for example).

I think humans spread from Earth to many solar systems and, eventually, to one or more galaxies beyond the Milky Way. I believe human settlers at one point came to the galaxy that the Joker star cluster is in and then lost contact with other galaxies. Then, after the fall of the AD era, all knowledge of humanity's origins were lost.

For me this fits because FSS is about the end of humankind's time on this plane of existence. Humans had developed as far as they could and done all that was worth doing (as a species). Amaterasu and Lachesis came into being because it was time for someone to guide humankind to the next phase. When you look at us here on Earth in the 21st century, we still have a lot to do and learn. We're a long way off from reaching the end of our time in this universe.

The dragons of Both seem vitally important to this theme. The way the dragon spoke to Ssizz, I got the impression they are either from another plane of existence or had developed to the point where they are intimately aware of "the next level." Why the dragons have an interest in helping humans reach the next phase is unknown but it would be fun if Nagano at least hinted at it.

David Brin works with similar ideas in his Uplift novels. In that setting, many alien races interact with each other in a larger galactic society. From time to time, a whole race will "retire." They cut contact with all other races and eventually they just aren't around anymore. The remaining races don't refer to them as dead but speak of their "moving on."
If you don't like the news then go make some of your own.

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Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:10 am

I remember reading somewhere that Nagano has stated that it is not the same universe as our own. However, I don't believe that.

Many of the same "brand names" that exist in our society today, exist in Joker. Examples:

Jack Daniels: Decors Weissmel is holding a bottle of Jack when he cuts off Jhon's hand.

Sony, Panasonic etc has been seen on equipment throughout the series

Kawasaki

Mitsubishi

Other earth connections:

Lachesis in a Braves outfit.

Krackenbeal wearing a "Cowboys" ballcap.

In Zanda City, Ting pulls a packet from a sign that reads "Oriental Magic! You get young: From Japan"

In general, the Joker populace seems to speak Japanese. Of course since the FSS is a japanese manga, this is typical, however other language connections exist:
Colus speak french
Rognar speaks German. It may be the language of his nation of Babylon
Colbalkan speaks English. Ssizz switches from speaking japanese to speaking english because it was what the Bangdoll was used to hearing. (though, in the english version, she switches to Japanese, because the translation is already in english. Clever!)

And this, the biggest clue that Jokerians descend from earthlings:

The Amaterasu family in Delta Belune posses the three articles of the Japanese emperors. The Sword, the mirror and the Magatama. Those are specifically articles that are held by the imperial family of Japan. That tells me that the Amaterasu family of Delta Belune are descended from the Imperial family from Japan....so them taking the name Amaterasu makes perfect sense, because thats who the Japanese imperial family is descended from.

Of course there are the dozens of other mythological referrences. In fact, when Sop is trying to find a name for Sue, he quotes many names that weren't right for Suezo, including Darth Vader and Eric Clapton (God of the guitar, duh everyone knows that!)

So I think that Jokerians are descendants from eath after many, many millenia of space-flight and lost records, though many stories and mythology have survived through time...
Shinei!

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Post by Hydra Mirage » Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:34 am

What about the Super Empire and the Chinese text when the Yen-Xing turn up...
I'm sure Nagano is drawing some comparison with China and Japan.
Though I don't know much of inter~Chinese/Japanese history.

Tomexe

Post by Tomexe » Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:24 pm

What about the Super Empire and the Chinese text when the Yen-Xing turn up...
I'm sure Nagano is drawing some comparison with China and Japan.
Though I don't know much of inter~Chinese/Japanese history.
Well, the institution of the Empire, along with writing in Chinese characters (kana) came from China and were gradually institued in Japan between the 4th and 7th Centuries AD.

By that time of course, the institution of Empire was many centuries old in China.

The allusion therefore is to the Chinese empire preceeding the Japanese, and contributing to it like the Cluster Empire contributed to the start of Joker era society, which then grew beyond it.

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Post by Poseidal » Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:03 pm

My personal opinion is that most of these are easter eggs. I mean, the whole of an era is named after a rock band!

Interesting thoughts though.

elemental

Post by elemental » Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:14 am

I would agree with the easter egg theory. Using familiar names, languages, artefacts etc also helps give a level of familiarity to a story that could otherwise be very alien.

In other words, FSS is far away, but close.

Tomexe

Post by Tomexe » Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:01 am

I hope they are not easter eggs, though I cannot say the possiblity doesn't exist, but I had thought Nagano was more creative than that.

elemental

Post by elemental » Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:01 am

I think he just puts brand names in for fun, nothing more. Certain other names etc might be a bit more than simple easter eggs, though. (Lachesis, Clotho, and Atropos?)

As for using real-world languages, what better way to highlight to his audience that not everyone in Joker speaks the same language? Making up pretend languages might work on film (e.g. Star Wars), but in print? I think it would look clumsy.

But real-world languages being proof of a link between us and joker? I'm not so sure. Languages change over time - and fairly quickly. And FSS is likely set a very long way into the future. Surely whatever they are speaking would bear no resemblance to our languages.

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Post by Falk » Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:46 pm

elemental wrote:The AD in Joker does not mean the same thing as our AD. From memory it stands for Amon Dul, another music reference.
Hé, was looking for some Rognar's pictures, and finally arrived on ImDB.

Look here : http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1294567/
and there : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062660/

Falk Rogner, John Weinzierl, Chris "Karrer"...
There's also a Leopold, maybe it turned out into Leopard ?
Based on those names Falk's name should Rogner and not Rognar.

I really have to check out their music, Nagano seems to have good tastes so why not ? (though I'm sceptical, mostly about the production at this time :P )
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Post by Tachyon » Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:22 pm

Wow, Falk. It looks like you found the source of Nagano's ideas.
If you don't like the news then go make some of your own.

TSP

Post by TSP » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:31 pm

We once had the same discusion on wax trax. About the origin of the names the influence of different stories like Dune and Star Wars.
His favor for the music of a german indie rockband with a turkish name.
Only the sound of the master him self wasn't that good.

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