Atropos' flashback

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Post by Rubel Colus » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:24 pm

Hahah, all these started coz I didn't mention 'JP' :oops:

I agree that it's better to specify the version. I've already edited the posts.

Sorry for the misunderstanding :oops:
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Post by hitori » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:52 pm

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Tomexe

Post by Tomexe » Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:19 am

That doesn't look like a fight in that picture.

If it was a attempt by Kaine to kill Ballanchine Queen would not be smiling at the fatima with the long hair holding the sword. Looking like she was trying to tell her it was alright, he'd be okay.

I think its a training accident. Is the short, real little fatima Auxo? Perhaps, but the long haired young fatima is probably not. Who are the fatimas most likely to take advantage of Kain in a fencing match ("See Uncle Douglas, look what Mr. Sopp taught me"- hiss-WHACK- AHHGH!)? The likely targets are the 2A rated fatimas, Majer might be too old, but that leaves LeLe-ist-Hotos, Hathsno-Hortes, and Hungtraing according to the list given to us by Allan Bradford in English #15.

Odds are given the age of Kain in that image that it would be Hungtrang (assuming Bradford was giving the list in Chronological order).

Any other fatima like to copy Queens interesting swallow-tail haircut as well?

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Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:11 am

Tomexe wrote:That doesn't look like a fight in that picture.
My first impression was that it was either a training foul-up or a test similar to what Kaien gives to those looking for Knight Master status...
If it was a attempt by Kaine to kill Ballanchine Queen would not be smiling at the fatima with the long hair holding the sword. Looking like she was trying to tell her it was alright, he'd be okay.
Well, Queen is a fatima after all, and she should be able to control/mask her emotions quite well. She may be very well "smiling" at the girl-child simply to keep her calm.
I think its a training accident. Is the short, real little fatima Auxo? Perhaps, but the long haired young fatima is probably not. Who are the fatimas most likely to take advantage of Kain in a fencing match ("See Uncle Douglas, look what Mr. Sopp taught me"- hiss-WHACK- AHHGH!)? The likely targets are the 2A rated fatimas, Majer might be too old, but that leaves LeLe-ist-Hotos, Hathsno-Hortes, and Hungtraing according to the list given to us by Allan Bradford in English #15.
Problem is, even a 2A rated fatima (in Fighting skill) is no match for Kaien. Not even slightly. We see Atropos succefully defeat Kaien with a Stun-spadd, but she's rated 3A and she took him by surprise with a sword-skill she should not have known.

The "fatima" in the picure looks a lot like Clotho. However, if that is indeed Auxo as a child, then it most certainly cannot be Clotho. Thus, this is why people believe its Mel Rince. Rince being a Baiya (well, not really) and very strong might have a chance against Kaien. No fatima in existance should have a chance against Kaien, especially when he's P.O'ed. Well, maybe Lachesis :)
Odds are given the age of Kain in that image that it would be Hungtrang (assuming Bradford was giving the list in Chronological order).
Most likely not Hugtrang, here she is. The girl with the short, dark hair is Hugtrang.

Not the girl in the picture at the beginning of this thread...
Shinei!

Tomexe

Post by Tomexe » Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:39 am

This wasn't a fight, it was a accident. A 2A rated fatima could hurt Kaine since he does have a tendency to be careless- as with Atropos, or for that matter when Auxo got hurt.

He wasn't expecting a move of the level that the fatima, whoever she was, pulled. And having the spadd on KILL instead of STUN was also definently a mistake on the fatimas part

Its more likely that one of the would-be 2A rated Fatimas could pull a move of a level that would suprise Kain than one of the A rated ones. But as it WAS a accident it could of been one of the A ones that learned ONE move from Sopp of a level that took Kain by surprise.

There is also a chance that a spadd on kill can slice through a spadd on stun and if Kain had his on stun expecting a frendly match and she carelessly wacked him, went right through his parry and off goes the arm...

Did Hungtrang always have short hair?

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Post by Mave » Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:52 am

I think you are not considering the context this was told in. Atropos mentions in her flashback in the picture that Sopp was and I quote:

Strong at times...sometimes scary (english vol 16)

The picture is alittle small, but you could make out that Auxo was crying and rushing to Kaiens side while Queens facial expression is just to small to make out. I dont think that looks like a smile though...more like a pleading-for-mercy face. What could be more scary than Amaterasu/Mel defeating the galaxys leading sword saint without breaking a sweat? Not a lot of things i bet...
Earlier in the story Kaien mentions that Amaterasu somehow stopped him from killing Ballanche and that jives with this pictures context more closely than some freak accident.

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Post by Rubel Colus » Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:50 pm

Yeah, the flashback is talking about all the Ballanche's fatimas' memories of Sopp. He is present in all the little 'bits' of memories or it wouldn't make sense.

Queen is not smiling :shock: as far as I see. She is pleading with Rince not to kill Kaien. His arms are on the ground, and blood is splattered all over! Who would be so sadistic to even smile in such a situation?! :shock:

Kaien reveals in JP vol 4 & 6 that Rince has always been protecting Ballanche in all his assassination attempts.
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Tomexe

Post by Tomexe » Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:34 pm

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I just cannot see anything sinister as you guys say in this picture.

If its Rince, why would she be wearing a Fatima suit? Look at the big "wings", stockings ect...

Auxo, if that is her, is clearly upset but its probably the first time she saw someone lose a arm- which is NOT a major injury in the JC! And its of course Kain, who Auxo is infatuated with anyway, even before he was her master.

Queens facial expression looks pretty clear to me and I would interpret it as trying to get the upset girls to calm down- after all it is really "only a flesh wound"- "Papa will fix him good as new"

Would Kains attempts to kill Ballanchine be remembered as a fond memory by the Fatimas? When did Queen dump Kaine over this issue as well?

Also this starts to overlap the other thread about Rince http://www.gearsonline.net/forums/viewt ... 2&start=45
Rince looked different in her first appearance in Kains flashback in Traffics, than she does when we see her in real life for the first time where Jabo gets killed. The design wasn't finalised true, but what does that mean for the story- does Rince's appearance change periodically over her carreer? Rince "now" looks a lot like Clotho. Is that because Amaterasu thinks that fondly of Clotho and changed Rinces looks in Clothos honor? Or are we expected to forget the one appearance of the light haired, taller Rince and think that Ballenchine made Clotho look like Rince?

I will note that in caption to Mel Rince's colorplate in the English editios it is stated that Nagano draws Rince like Clotho because he LIKES drawing Clotho's design and just didn't want to put it on the shelf for years at a time while she is sleeping.

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Post by Rubel Colus » Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:55 pm

Actually I've started this thread to discuss the possible date of the event, and the possible discrepancy of the identity of the little girl as Auxo. Reason is spelt out in one of my previous posts in the first page.

As for this scene, let's juz say it is well-known as the 'Rince chops Kaien's arms' event. For those who are still not convinced:

- In KF, there is a description of Rince. Quote "Rince, in order to protect Ballanche, uses the Sword Saint Technique 'Calvary Blade' to cut down both arms of Kaien."

- If u have actually read about this part in JP vol 7, you would know that Atropos is talking about the memories of Sopp which had left deep impressions in all of her sisters (Ballanche fatimas). Sopp is supposed to be in all of these bits of memories. For this particular image, Atropos talks about how powerful and scary Sopp is - so who do u think is Sopp in this picture and why is he scary? Please check your own version of FSS since I don't have the English books.

- In JP vol 4 & 6, Kaien talks about being beaten by Rince. You can see that he is totally overwhelmed and sounds afraid of Rince. JP vol6 when he's talking with Laki, he talked about why he wants to kill Ballanche and Rince would always be there to stop Kaien.

- Looking at the picture - Who is standing with a superior pose? Why is the little girl with outstretched arms? Obviously, she is in a protecting pose, protecting the fallen from the other. Why would she need to 'protect' if it was just 'training'?


PS > Forget about the first pic you saw about Rince in JP vol 4. Even Shaft looks so different, coz its not finalized. Rince so far looks the same with black hair in the later issues.
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Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:46 pm

From English FSS: volume 13, page 10.

Kaien: "You see, I was sleeping with my own mother and didn't know it. I tried to kill that bastard (note: Ballanche) several times, but your boss always managed to stop me."

Lachesis: "Won't you forgive father...now?"

Kaien: "Forgive him? He's already dead in his grave. You see, I never knew my father, but I guess as things turned out that was for the best."

So the scene in English FSS page 61 is most likely Mel Rince, as this flashback is in referrence to Sop in all his "forms" about how he helped all of Ballanches fatima and why they consider him their "Arch-master".

The importance of the scene in this context is because Rince could very well have killed Kaien, but out of respect/love for Queen and Auxo, spared his life...even though Rince knew Kaien would likely try to kill Ballanche again.
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Post by Mave » Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:42 am

What they both above said :P


About the date...it is mentioned that Kaien had several attempts at Ballanches life. Does this make the date easier to pin-point?
Maybe each and every time he tried, Rince chopped of his arms :twisted:

Tomexe

Post by Tomexe » Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:15 pm

I don't have access to KF, my Japanese (in spite of 3 quarters in college) is not good enough to read the manga text.

From the information provided in the English edition, its not possible to know that scene is one of Kanes attempts on Ballenchines life (we know he did it but there is no way to connect that scene to one of those events)

And you cannot tell it from the characters body and facial expressions in the scene. Queen doesn't visually look upset enough and the little fatima just looks like she is upset that someone got hurt and is trying to help hold Kaine up.

It just doesn't look right for such a dramatic moment, especially for Queen- her son has just been seriously injured in a attempt to kill her father. Thats pretty emotional, and Queen has no mind control to keep emotions in check...

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Post by Mave » Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:29 pm

My My :roll:

Its up to you to choose and ignore context and all the viable clues at hand.
Think about it. That part of the flashback is about Sopps scary, coldblooded and frightening side. All should be clear IF you consider that context. Think of the plausibility of a mere accident beeing in shall we call it "Ballanche-fatimas flashback-scene aobut Sopp", pretty meaningless and not connected to what Nagano was telling us about Kaien earlier in the story when he comes to Lachesis aid.

Tomexe

Post by Tomexe » Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:14 pm

Hey, if the little fatima in the above pic IS Auxo, what does that do to the "Auxo is Focuslight" theory?

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