Knighthoods/Headliners treating fatima badly

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Mave
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Post by Mave » Thu Oct 21, 2004 3:51 pm

Auxo is only attracted to headliners decended from Ned Swans.
Hmm, that doesnt make sense. Kaien is descendent, DIRECT descendent mind you of Assaram Skins.

Defining feelings and love are a big can of worms and when we factor in custom-made Fatimas like Eatta and Auxo (both were custom designed for their particular knight) things get even muddier.... :roll:

Lalasa

Post by Lalasa » Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:46 pm

Hm, this has me thinking of gender identity. Must be because Amaterasu is hermaphroditic and his "mother" is probably one as well. Nagano clearly chose Amaterasu to be looked at as "male" and his mother as "female", when they're actually both.

Anyway, it's said that there are more than 12 human psychological genders. The two most talked about (and of course controversial...though honestly, I have no clue how love between two consentual being is a "sin".) being gay/lesbians.

But, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

S

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Mave
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Post by Mave » Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:32 pm

Must be because Amaterasu is hermaphroditic and his "mother" is probably one as well. Nagano clearly chose Amaterasu to be looked at as "male" and his mother as "female", when they're actually both.
Whu? :shock:
Where did you read that? As far as I know she is 100% woman, atleast biologically. Other than that she gave a virgin birth to Sopp and was one of the most powerful divers of her time (She still appears from time to time) there aint any funny business with her...

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Nu Soard Graphite
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Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:11 pm

Tomexe wrote: But is this any different from human women being attracted to a certain TYPE of male? And it would also need to determine first wether the human tendency toward monogamy is cultural or gentic.
It is my belief (from personal observation) that human beings are not inherently monogamous. Not by a long stretch.

I am by no means an expert on the animal kingdom, but from what I've seen, all mamilian species that live in social groups are not at all monogamous! Most especialy primates, Cats (both great and small) Canines (Wolves and Dogs) and herd animals (horses, cattle etc)
These groups consist of an Alpha male who gets his pick of the females. Occasionally that alpha might allow one of the other males to mate with a female, but only occasionally. Sickly and/or weak males are not allowed to mate period. The females will not allow it. This is the animals way of weeding out genetic abnormalities to keep the species strong.

Monogamy in humans is cultural. It is deeply rooted in religion in most cultures. This is humanity's way of enforcing a form of "fairness" on people so that every male has a chance of mating. Simply the fact that there are far more females in our society than there are males should be a clue to our genetic heritage of polygamy.

There is a great deal of evidence in front of us in the form of High school drama. The "Alpha" males of high school are invariably the Jocks and popular guys who get their pick of the chicks. With only a (very) few exceptions, most of the girls in school dream about being the quarterback's girl. A good-looking, athletic guy, regardless of his personality will be the center of attention with multiple women vying for his affection. Also men with strong/forceful personalities are seen by many women as Alphas. This "strength" is quite important to women instinctually as in nature females will seek out males who have the strength to protect the "family" from predators. At the most basic level, this is why many abused and battered women refuse to leave their abusive husbands. (and a low self-esteem doesn't help either)
Also don't streatch too much how long Ietta has to wait between Rognars. She is not much more than 300 years old and should be on only her second Rognar, and maybe only her first, when we meet her in 2990. She does have Sopp as her "fall back master", and she has never been in a postion where she has lost Rognar but been out of the protection of Amatarasu. And in Fatima terms it doesn't take long to regnerate a Rognar, maybe 25 years. At which point, even though he has a boys body the mind is mature enough for the daughter chip to work and he has fully regained his powers of mind and can start being her master again. In the meantime, she seems to function, like Majer, as the child Rognars foster mother. Thus the amount of time she is truely without Rognar is measured in maybe months.

Rognar is lucky to have her, because otherwise his life would be really lonely due to his form of mental imortality. Their closeness therefor is more than just husband and wife.
Great point!
Shinei!

Tomexe

Post by Tomexe » Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:12 am

Mave wrote:
Auxo is only attracted to headliners decended from Ned Swans.
Hmm, that doesnt make sense. Kaien is descendent, DIRECT descendent mind you of Assaram Skins.

Defining feelings and love are a big can of worms and when we factor in custom-made Fatimas like Eatta and Auxo (both were custom designed for their particular knight) things get even muddier.... :roll:
Aaak! My apologies! I got the wrong name

Tomexe

Post by Tomexe » Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:25 am

What somewhat suprises me is, given that Fatimas have a direct two way brain interface, and it is used to educate them, why they do not have artificial memeories.

Of course that may be one of the things that are "banned".

It seems that headliners started out as engineered creatures in the AD era not too different from the fatimas. Perhaps this was used in the AD to create artificial memories to help control the headliners (Chivalries I think they were called then)? And thus is one of the things that are taboo in the JC era.

The difference between a fatima and a headdliner really seems to be that one is born from a woman and the other is born from a bottle. Because they are not born from a woman fatimas are considered "artificial" and therefore "not human". But its taboo to use many of the technologies used to make fatimas to increase the number of headdliners.

Lalasa

Post by Lalasa » Fri Oct 22, 2004 6:56 am

Mave wrote:
Must be because Amaterasu is hermaphroditic and his "mother" is probably one as well. Nagano clearly chose Amaterasu to be looked at as "male" and his mother as "female", when they're actually both.
Whu? :shock:
Where did you read that?
Just a personal opinion. I like the idea that Mikoto/Mikado is hermaphroditic.

S

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Post by Mave » Fri Oct 22, 2004 8:55 am

Yeah she may have played both the role of the father and mother during the upbringing of Sopp but that doesnt make her biologically a hermaphrodite... :P
No offense but i dont think a downright error is an interpretation matter.

The only person in Joker with such gender/body-bending powers are Sopp (and probably to some degree Lachesis but she aint pulled any switcharoo as of yet...), atleast until Nagano decides otherwise. :roll:

Lalasa

Post by Lalasa » Fri Oct 22, 2004 9:18 am

For awhile there, I honestly did think that Mikoto (Goddess/Empress Lady...) was a hermaphrodite due to the way she was drawn. In book 11 of the English language one, you see her appearing before Lachesis with her shirt/shawl open so far down that on a normal woman would reveal almost all of her left chest area.

I'm also studying to become a fashion designer so I have access to females with that body type and musculature. *shrugs and smiles* Being the curious girl that I am, I did a little experimentation with that type of clothes, draping, binding and weaving it the same way as in the illustration on the their bodies and it was as I thought. If the cloth dipped that much, a goodly amount of their breasts are revealed. Yet, there is no hint of roundness or even pointy nipple in that illustration.

But after awhile, yes, she is seen as a definite "she", but I still believe she's a hermphrodite.

S

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Mave
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Post by Mave » Fri Oct 22, 2004 10:49 am

Haha :D You´ve got a very good eye for detail.
There is a perfectly good explanation about the bodyform and breast-part. It is simply Naganos way of drawing women :roll:
His background in fashion-design shows through here the most i think. Almost all his females are thin-thin-thin! And he himself acknowledges that fact when he mentions Mugumica as the opposite and how nice it is to draw a chubby girl for a change and less stick-girls (check english volume 8 ) :wink:

But yeah, I agree that some of Naganos female can be very masculine looking and some of the males can be very feminine (Maximum and Sarion comes to mind)

Lalasa

Post by Lalasa » Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:32 pm

Mave wrote:Haha :D You´ve got a very good eye for detail.
There is a perfectly good explanation about the bodyform and breast-part. It is simply Naganos way of drawing women :roll:

....And he himself acknowledges that fact when he mentions Mugumica as the opposite and how nice it is to draw a chubby girl for a change and less stick-girls :wink:
LOL! Thanks. All of my models loved the FSS fashion, I should say and I even had a few teachers ask me if it's part of my new line. I said no, Mamaru Nagano beat me to it already!

Nagano's got a very distinctive style and I'm glad for it.

OOoh...so that's that plump shamanistic princess's name. She actually resembles a Japanese ceremonial doll....or maybe Nagano actually designed that little thing. Oh, dear, I can't remember though I desperately wanted a copy of it at the time. XD

Saurion was just weird when I saw him. I can deal with Max and Amaterasu and the rest of them, but for some reason Saurion just freaked me out. Maybe it's because I see far too many skinny, beautiful men in my chosen career path that Saurion was just...the last straw. Can't take it anymore. Where's Dragonballs when I need it!

Anyway, I'm sorry for hijacking the thread like this...*creeps off*

S

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Mave
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Post by Mave » Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:02 pm

Haha :D
Naw its all fun! As long as we stick to FSS I bet we are fine.
You know, that was a VERY interesting and quite fitting comparison between Mugumica and them dolls! (though i dont think Nagano designed the dolls :wink: )

Tomexe

Post by Tomexe » Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:16 pm

Well I finally got to read Routh and Megaella's storry in English Vol 22 and Christine V's story in Vol 23 with Machi's speech.

Machi is repeating the Fillmore ethos, and has come to beleve it. I guess she hasn't met any of her sisters in a while. What Machi is saying cannot be considered the truth, even the claim that Fillmore fatimas suffer fewer mental breakdowns has to be put in the "belief" rather than fact catagory.

Clearly Fatimas, at least the hand made ones, choose their masters for very individual reasons, unless they are programmed to do otherwise.

And Inter City for one, seemed to be quite happy to just BE a fatima! Maybe she was not as bright as her later sisters, or maybe she was smarter than them all?

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Post by Rubel Colus » Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:13 pm

I believe Machi's words should be the truth, at least it seems like this is what the factual evidence shows during that time. Futhermore, it sounds perfectly logical too. Why would she come out with some views of her own without any evidence?
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- FSS Eng Vol 1(Black cover)

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Tomexe

Post by Tomexe » Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:03 pm

Rubel Colus wrote:I believe Machi's words should be the truth, at least it seems like this is what the factual evidence shows during that time. Futhermore, it sounds perfectly logical too. Why would she come out with some views of her own without any evidence?
She didn't make them up, they are the commonly held views of the Fillmore knightood and their fatimas, and that is all she has lived with since leaving home right?

But clearly that is not how other fatimas like Megalla, Auxo, ect beleve, living with masters who definently do not share such ideas.

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