About Rognar

Discussion of FSS manga, movie and omake

Moderator: kosh

User avatar
Rubel Colus
Posts: 838
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 10:49 am
Location: The little red dot...

About Rognar

Post by Rubel Colus » Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:54 am

Falk Ugen Rognar / Warz Ende Bubiron V
Aka Machine Child.

Born: JC 2443
Died: JC 2570 killed in a battle

Reborn: JC 2810 using the Daughter chip. Partners with fatima Ieatta.
Died: JC 3010 killed by Diver Vos

Reborn: JC 3010

JC 3239 - Pilots the Jagd Mirage Orange Right blasting at Planet Kallamity. He appears very very old. [Strange huh? he's at most 229 years old only, which is about 40-50 earth yrs. He looks like 70-80 yrs old :roll: ]

JC 4100 - Appears in Float Temple and pilots the Cloudschatze. He looks noticably younger here.

We see Rognar being reborn more than once, and using the Daughter chip, he is "reborn" as a clone with all his memories and capabilities intact.

Problem is - Do you think that he is the "same" Rognar? Or are they merely clones of the original, just that they share and accumulate the memories of the previous?

Tell me your views?
Looking for:
- FSS Eng Vol 1(Black cover)

Image

Lalasa

Post by Lalasa » Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:18 pm

I think of the later Rognars as "twins", so to speak, of the original. Because though twins are genetically the same, they still have different personalities, wants and beliefs. So though this Rognar is similar to the original, despite the accumulated memories, he will probably do things very differently then his predecessors. That, essentially, makes the latest Rognar a completely different person emotionally, mentally and very likely physically (enviromental factors and scars of living) from the original.

I wish there really was a Rognar and I'd have a daughter chip myself so I can see how he deals with his "past life" mistakes or how he changes things he regretted doing. I seriously doubt there isn't something in each life that he doesn't regret. But of course that's never going to happen. At least not to me anyway.

S

User avatar
Mave
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:38 pm
Location: Sweden

Post by Mave » Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:51 pm

Interesting theory. I myself favor the sleep-then-wakeup theory. When he dies, or shall we say...when his mind "dies" the chip writes everything over to his new body so that it´ll be a linear chain of memory and accumulative experiences. Death is merely like sleep, he "dies" off and wakes up with a new body but the same mind and capabilites.
Also, I dont think when a person is capable of such existence will think of past mistakes or earlier lives ie they are non-rectifiable to some degree like the mistakes and misteps made by ordinary people. He doesnt even consider himself an ordinary human anymore and why should he? He is free of the shackles of life as we know it. Atleast until the chip is destroyed :P

Tomexe

Post by Tomexe » Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:17 am

I know Nagano likes to make characters in different generations look like each other, but I think that in the AKD there are a few lines of clones floating around.

My take on Rognar was that he kept his memories AND personality intact, he just added to it with each generaton. This is what made him different from just a clone, which Joker tech was still able to generate of anybody. A clone would be raised by different people in different times though and their experience would produce a different end product. But once the child Rognar reaches a certain level of development the daughter chip kicks in and you have the same old Rognar that had died 25 years earlier, like he just awoke from a nap.

I have my suspicions that the Ex women are all twins of each other. And I wonder if Waschaa is actually Aisha's chronologically seperated twin as well.

I think a number of the AKD's big headdliner families keep themselves in status either by cloaning or by keeping embryos of their top headliners on ice. They lack the daughter chip though, so the end product is only outwardly alike ( they look like each other and share headdliner physical traits). The Ex family I think trys to simulate some of Rognars consistancy by having each generation of female headdliner be the mother for the next. Lie, to Pannar, to Arart. The Codantes either don't care to be that exact, and are just happy with the security that comes from at least ONE of their number being a headliner, however good, -or Aisha simply wasn't cooperative about being a Mom period.

One hint of this is the time in the Traffics books where Amaterasu hits on Lie, she tells him, "When I can no longer serve you... the next Ex will take my place... and the next hers (my italics).

Now she may already have Pannar, but how does she know that the next one after Pannar will be female as well?

I beleve its because they already have been concieved. That there are a bunch of female Ex embryo twins in refrigeration as a insurance policy. And while the Ex women may have other children naturally, the "bank" of confirmed headdliner embryos both insures them status. And by each generaton raising one of the embryos they keep some measure of consistency, passing down knowledge from mother to daughter, though by no means anything like what Rognar gets from his daughter chip.

Waschaa's similarity to Aisha, but in a younger version, suggests that the Condantes do a simliar thing. But they either don't try to be as consistant by insisting that each generation raise and teach their sister/daughter or just Aisha doesn't go for motherhood- probably the latter by the way she talked to Jabo "Your'e not really going to have that thing are you?" suggests she doesn't like babies that much.

Add Aisha's age and you can see why the Codantes might have decided to have another embryo thawed out and raised by another female member of the Clan. In order to ensure the family kept its place in the AKD hierarchy by being able to field a headdliner, however good, for it.

Lalasa

Post by Lalasa » Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:45 am

Mave wrote:Interesting theory.... Atleast until the chip is destroyed :P
LOL! I had to look up "non-rectifiable" and I was about to say that word does not exist! Lo and behold, it does. XD

And I was going to say something else, but I can't remember what it is now. *grimacing* It had something to do with Rognar's arrogance about his humanity. I just can't remember the exact wording.

I'll bet Rognar doesn't have that problem...hm...that's a strange life sentence. Ouch.
Tomexe wrote:I think a number of the AKD's big headdliner families keep themselves in status either by cloaning or by keeping embryos of their top headliners on ice. They lack the daughter chip though, so the end product is only outwardly alike ( they look like each other and share headdliner physical traits).
That sounds like ancient nobles who, if they had the technology, no doubt would do exactly that. Actually, that sounds like my family, just change "headdliner ability" into "having only boys" ...which is just too creepy to think about.

I always thought of FSS-verse as having extremely advanced technology (which could rightly be called magic in my book) ripped out of it's proper time frame then dropped into (an alternative) Earth's medieval/renaissance era.

Playing God...

S

User avatar
Rubel Colus
Posts: 838
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 10:49 am
Location: The little red dot...

Post by Rubel Colus » Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:43 am

You idea of how Lie Ex prepared a "copy" of themselves might be the explanation of why Panar Ex's father is not mentioned. That is, until Nagano decides to tell us who the father is.

I remember there was a comment about complete cloning of a person is not possible in the Joker Universe because if 2 persons are completely the same, even their thought-waves are the same frequency and this will cause a mental breakdown of one or both persons. If the clone were to be developed after the source had died, then I suppose it will be safe for the clone.

The thing about Rognar is that even if he has the same character, capabilities, and with his memory intact, do we consider the consciousness (or some might call a "soul") to be transferred as well? Is a person with the same memory and character the exact same person he used to be?

In other words, is a person merely a collection of memories and character?
Looking for:
- FSS Eng Vol 1(Black cover)

Image

Lalasa

Post by Lalasa » Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:27 am

Rubel Colus wrote:You idea of how Lie Ex prepared a "copy" of themselves might be the explanation of why Panar Ex's father is not mentioned...
*grinning* In English book 2, page 69, showing a gallery of mirage knights, Lie Ex is written with a whole bunch of stuff, then: "...Mother of one, wife to no one."

It was such a clear, concise sentence that it was the only reason why Lie Ex stuck in my head and was a bit special to me. I do wonder about the father too. Or the mother in some cases...

S

Tomexe

Post by Tomexe » Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:10 pm

I remember there was a comment about complete cloning of a person is not possible in the Joker Universe because if 2 persons are completely the same, even their thought-waves are the same frequency and this will cause a mental breakdown of one or both persons. If the clone were to be developed after the source had died, then I suppose it will be safe for the clone.
You know, your right, he did say that...but then he went and had Ballanchine make Uplanda...

That still leaves twins as a possibility, after in vitro fertilization it is possible to artificially simulate the process that creates natural identical multiples.

The embryo in the 8 to 32 cell stage of division can be seperated into up into individual cells and each cell placed in a denucliated ova. As long as the ova are from the same woman, as the ova used to make the original embryo the resulting mulitples will be true identical twins.

This has already been done. The only limit to it is the state of the art in gathering and handling the eggs and embryos, and right now ours is not good. The tools we use for the mechanical handling just are not either delecate or accurate enough. But there is experimentation with totally automating the process and using robots which, once tuned, will produce the exact same results time and again.

And yes Nagano could introduce us to Lie's husband and Aisha and Waschaa's parents and blow my whole idea out of the water. Shame though because it is a nice idea, totally fits the character of the people in that universe.

User avatar
Mave
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:38 pm
Location: Sweden

Post by Mave » Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:57 am

PLOTSPOILER!














The Codantes (Aisha and Waschyas parents) were reportedly assassinated by Sarions parents. Sarion in a fit of rage over his own parents weakening the AKD went and killed his own folks...thats loyalty towards the state people!

Lalasa

Post by Lalasa » Wed Nov 03, 2004 3:44 am

Tomexe wrote:
Rubel Colus wrote:I remember there was a comment about complete cloning of a person is not possible in the Joker Universe because if 2 persons are completely the same, even their thought-waves are the same frequency and this will cause a mental breakdown of one or both persons. If the clone were to be developed after the source had died, then I suppose it will be safe for the clone.
You know, your right, he did say that...but then he went and had Ballanchine make Uplanda...
LOL! I do have to wonder about that though considering that Amaterasu is literally a god, and Ballanche said Upandora is only a "replica" (English book #11, page 97.) and I know I always whine about how bad the English is in the translated books, but there is a big difference between "replica" and "clone". Since those two words are not created by Nagano like "Machine Child" or Kellens name or even the random missing words in some dialogue boxes (which is the translator's fault), I wonder if the translators would make such an error as using a word that could be better expressed with another.

I'll compare him to Lachesis whom Ballanche also have created a body for: "Lachesis XX-YY-yy Double Epsilon, a humanoid with unpredictable chromosomes. She is not a fatima, but a creature of will with high dimensional elements necessary for individualized evolution." (English book #11, page 95.) Upandora cannot do what she or Amaterasu can. That is evolve into an entirely different being without any DNA connection between the two.

Therefore Upandora does not seem to be an exact, identicle clone of Amaterasu. I think he is simply a good skin-deep...mimic...made by Ballanche. His existance probably won't cause any adverse effect on him or Amaterasu. Because, going by Joker universe physics, Amaterasu, despite being a god, is still a creature made in that in universe so if he did had an exact clone, Amaterasu probably would not survive. (Although as we all know, Amaterasu can certainly bend the rules of that universe, but apparently he cannot (or would not) break it.)

I hope I haven't lost anyone. I did confused myself a few times there, so I won't be surprised if the above isn't as articulate as I would like it to be.

S

User avatar
Mave
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:38 pm
Location: Sweden

Post by Mave » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:41 am

Not at all. It sounds logical and reasonable :)

Tomexe

Post by Tomexe » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:02 pm

Mave wrote:PLOTSPOILER


The Codantes (Aisha and Waschyas parents) were reportedly assassinated by Sarions parents. Sarion in a fit of rage over his own parents weakening the AKD went and killed his own folks...thats loyalty towards the state people!
Did he explain the big age difference between the two?

User avatar
Rubel Colus
Posts: 838
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 10:49 am
Location: The little red dot...

Post by Rubel Colus » Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:05 pm

I think Lalasa is right about Upandora. As far as i remembered, the term used was Upandora is a "copy" or "replicate" of Sopp, rather than "clone". Instead, it was mentioned that Rognar is the one and only cloned human in all of Joker.

Is Rognar's "rebirth" is similar to him waking up after a nap or is he a totally different person with the same character and memory?

The first idea implies that there is no such thing as "consciousness" or "soul". As long as the memories (and other data) are entered into the new body, it will appear to the person as if he just woke up. But then, given that there is no thought-wave interference, with the same data, it is theoretically possible to produce multiple copies of the memory "data". It is similar to computer files being copied and distributed to multiple systems. So in theory, we can produce an army of Rognars. :twisted: Also, do they feel each other? And whatever one feels will be experienced by the others? An extension of the first. Kinda like Agent Smith in Matrix huh? ;) 8) However, if there is indeed "consciousness" or "soul" and it can be "copied" and stored as data, then it will be different altogether. The idea of waking-up will be valid, but again what will happen if I make multiple copies?

I'm more to the idea that the "new" Rognar gets the "old" predecessor's memories, but is a different person. Even with the same memories, character, behaviour and capabilities, it is similar to the new guy being a twin of the predecessor - they are still separate entities.

It'll be great if I can get more people's opinions on this. :)
Looking for:
- FSS Eng Vol 1(Black cover)

Image

User avatar
Poseidal
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:08 pm
Location: Gustgal
Contact:

Post by Poseidal » Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:41 am

It's possible (although this is complete wild speculation) that in the Naganoverse, body/mind/soul are entwined, so the soul will 're-seek' the body to be reborn, as it is 'the same' body (and mind) due the daughter chip.

It's just a way of looking at it though.

User avatar
Rubel Colus
Posts: 838
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 10:49 am
Location: The little red dot...

Post by Rubel Colus » Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:52 am

Poseidal wrote:It's possible (although this is complete wild speculation) that in the Naganoverse, body/mind/soul are entwined, so the soul will 're-seek' the body to be reborn, as it is 'the same' body (and mind) due the daughter chip.

It's just a way of looking at it though.
Hey, that's how Buddhism tries to explain rebirth. The idea is similar to radio waves and radio receiver. I just read about this on another forum ;)

I'm not even an amateur on Buddhism so don't quote me on this :D
Looking for:
- FSS Eng Vol 1(Black cover)

Image

Post Reply