Which side would you support? Hathuha vs Buchtgma

Rubel Colus · Post by **Rubel Colus** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:08 am

Before you vote, here are some points to consider:

- Hathuha and Fillmore were the instigators of Colus vs Hagooda War in 2989. They were the supporters of Hagooda and were responsible for the death of Colus 23.

- Buchtgma Emperor Vosjathfort is always hungry for power. Many people will see him as the personification of evil in this conflict, since he is responsible for the deaths of many Mirage Knights (Corlala, Poesche, Lie Ex, also Jabo). However, consider why he is doing all this - to weaken AKD and see Amaterasu's responses. Man's challenge to God?

- Buchtgma provides a chance for all those knights who were left out. Many knights of powerful countries got their positions not based on their strength, but purely on their bloodline, i.e. royalty. Nobodys like Jid and Decors would never have a chance if not for Buchtgma. This is the reason why Decors agreed to let a nobody like Jid take the Schepeltor.

Please gimme your comments, and if you think there is a need for more options let me know? I'll see if I can edit the options for the poll.

Zoxesyr · Post by **Zoxesyr** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:05 am

Buchtgma Emperor Vosjathfort

I thought that he was the guy who tried to kill Ladios' mother, and ladios sent to hell. I didn't realize that he somehow became the rule of Buchtgma.

Nu Soard Graphite · Post by **Nu Soard Graphite** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:37 am

Zoxesyr wrote:
Buchtgma Emperor Vosjathfort
I thought that he was the guy who tried to kill Ladios' mother, and ladios sent to hell. I didn't realize that he somehow became the rule of Buchtgma.

WHAT?

You didn't know that!

Okay. The entire purpose of the Emperor Rescue mission (well, beyond the Mirages trying to rescue Sopp) was that the Diver Di Barrow was being mind-controlled by Vos. Vos needed the Water of Life to increase his power, and he got a single drop...which was enough to revive him and increase his powers exponentially. What do you think Beauty Peel was doing there with Di Barrow.....she was keeping an eye on things to make sure everything went as planned

After being revived, Vosjasforth took over Di Barrow's nation of Siburu (Seable?) and some surrounding nations (I think) and formed the Magic Kingdom Buchtagma. He immediately sent out a call to all Headdliners, including those who other nations did not want (he turns down no HL's because of birth or lack of power) so he quickly became popular amongst the mercenaries and low-born HL's of Both (of which there are a great many)
His goal?
Well, World Domination! of course. But you gotta admit, he's not all bad, I mean he is helping the economy by employing a great many out-of-work Headdliners!

I vote Hathua though, because while Vos may be indirectly doing some good, he's doing them for bad reasons...i.e. Galactic domination and the ruination of the Amaterasu family and their control over the Diver's Guild. And all simply because Amaterasu Mikoto wouldn't simply hand over the leadership of the Diver's guild to him and make him Amaterasu Royalty. Start an interstellar war that will likely slaughter millions simply because he's having a temper tantrum.

He needs a serious spanking.

Lalasa · Post by **Lalasa** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:24 am

I want Hathuha to win this, but I personally like Buchtagama. So I am neutral.

How sad that Bijutorn Corlala died. I really liked him though he's not seen much and is not a very important character.

S

Rubel Colus · Post by **Rubel Colus** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:16 am

hmmm there's something wrong with the polls >__<

shouldn't have edited the post

Mave · Post by **Mave** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:06 am

Not trying to spoil the fun but...

Buchtgma loses towards the end of the Majestic Stand doesnt they?

Pretty interesting if you look at it deeper into the future. By attacking and decimating 1 of the superpowers of Joker, Vos actually paved the way for the AKD:s later galactic conquest. Pretty counterproductive if he wants to get even with them

Another red herring is Filmores and Kbalcarns involvement in this conflict. The FSS timeline doesnt mention if they suceed in establishing a larger enclave on Both (they already have autonomous regions). But from what we can tell (the war for Filmore) it must have been a failure, minor or major of some sort.

Rubel Colus · Post by **Rubel Colus** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:38 pm

Mave wrote:Not trying to spoil the fun but...

Buchtgma loses towards the end of the Majestic Stand doesnt they?

Pretty interesting if you look at it deeper into the future. By attacking and decimating 1 of the superpowers of Joker, Vos actually paved the way for the AKD:s later galactic conquest. Pretty counterproductive if he wants to get even with them

It doesnt really matter who wins in the end. In fact, Hathuha will exist even after the Grand Invasion. Amaterasu allows Hathuha to stay autonomous. But you're right that Vos' invasion disrupts the power balance so much that it might indeed end up making things easier for AKD. But then, is the damage so much that they couldnt recover in such a long time? JC 3079 end of Majestic Stand to JC 3159 Grand Invasion, thats 80 years!

Nu Soard Graphite wrote: He immediately sent out a call to all Headdliners, including those who other nations did not want (he turns down no HL's because of birth or lack of power) so he quickly became popular amongst the mercenaries and low-born HL's of Both (of which there are a great many)
His goal?
Well, World Domination! of course. But you gotta admit, he's not all bad, I mean he is helping the economy by employing a great many out-of-work Headdliners!

Imagine living in a world where even if u have the talent or ability, you are still the underdog because of birthright.

Actually, reality is somewhat the same, but I suppose it's not as bad as the world in Joker.

Many headliners of Bughtgma are not as weak as it seems, this is according to Decors' comments, and we know how strong Decors is. The frustration of these well-talented people that they are not recognised in the world might have brought them together and triggered the war. The war between talented people who are not recognised because of birthright, and those who are of royal or noble births.

Decors has always tried so hard to be famous - his delibarate freeing of Babaluse V, adoption under "uncle" Juba the head of Trun, duel with Roados Dragoon and also little Jhon, taking up of the title of Black Knight, etc... He's very hungry for fame. Very strong desire for recognition.

On the other hand, Vos is not only hungry for fame and power, he's in fact aware of Sopp's real identity and challenged him. Many others such as Ballanche, Mugumika, Dr Diamond, and Nein, who know of Sopp's real identity indirectly challenged him too. This makes me wonder what will happen if it is the real world, i.e. we become aware of a god living amongst us - what is our reaction? Is it natural that people will challenge Him?

Nu Soard Graphite · Post by **Nu Soard Graphite** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:57 pm

The Majestic Stand is the defining moment in Joker history.

Why do I say this?

Because after the Magic War, the galaxy will be thrown into such political upheaval that Amaterasu has no choice other than to conquer the galaxy and enforce peace through superior firepower.

I think Amaterasu knows that the Vagires are coming. The Galaxy must be united to face them, so if he can't do it by diplomacy, he must resort to force. Problem is he doesn't unite the galaxy in time....

Mave · Post by **Mave** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 12:06 am

But then, is the damage so much that they couldnt recover in such a long time? JC 3079 end of Majestic Stand to JC 3159 Grand Invasion, thats 80 years!

Very good point. But since the only current superpower not embroiled in the war is AKD, they will still be ahead of the others in terms of numbers atleast.

It is a honorable thing to give unknown headdliners a chance though I think Vos is just using them to attain his own goals...
The same could be said for those headdliners that reaches fame thru Vos and Buchtgma so its a win-win situation for both

The frustration of these well-talented people that they are not recognised in the world might have brought them together and triggered the war.

You could say that. They beeing the gunpowder and Vos the igniter/detonator.

This makes me wonder what will happen if it is the real world, i.e. we become aware of a god living amongst us - what is our reaction? Is it natural that people will challenge Him?

I think so, there will ALWAYS be doubters and skepticism

I think Amaterasu knows that the Vagires are coming. The Galaxy must be united to face them, so if he can't do it by diplomacy, he must resort to force. Problem is he doesn't unite the galaxy in time....

Vagires? You mean the folks from Stant?
And what about "Problem is he doesn't unite the galaxy in time"?
Do you mean that later the galaxy turns against him?
If so I think that can be explained by the possibly very brutal invasion.

Zoxesyr · Post by **Zoxesyr** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:15 am

Nu Soard Graphite wrote: After being revived, Vosjasforth took over Di Barrow's nation of Siburu (Seable?) and some surrounding nations (I think) and formed the Magic Kingdom Buchtagma.

Where was this explained? I don't remember reading this anywhere...

I thought Vos possessed DiBarrow, and was just using him and his resources to get to the WOL. After the body of DiBarrow was destroyed in the buster attack, and Vos was "overcome" by the WOL, I thought he spent time recovering until he reappeared to kill Corlala, Beat, et al. and otherwise make Amaterasu's life unpleasant. I thought Vos's motivation was more personal against Amaterasu for what he did the first time around.

Rubel Colus · Post by **Rubel Colus** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:21 am

Zoxesyr wrote:
Nu Soard Graphite wrote: After being revived, Vosjasforth took over Di Barrow's nation of Siburu (Seable?) and some surrounding nations (I think) and formed the Magic Kingdom Buchtagma.
Where was this explained? I don't remember reading this anywhere...

I thought Vos possessed DiBarrow, and was just using him and his resources to get to the WOL. After the body of DiBarrow was destroyed in the buster attack, and Vos was "overcome" by the WOL, I thought he spent time recovering until he reappeared to kill Corlala, Beat, et al. and otherwise make Amaterasu's life unpleasant. I thought Vos's motivation was more personal against Amaterasu for what he did the first time around.

Hmm, now that you mentioned, I dont recall that it was mentioned anywhere in the manga.

Were there any side notes in the English Volumes - the part where Jabo was killed by Vos? Anyway, it was mentioned in Knight Flags and such. For those who are not aware, Beauty is the head of a very huge and rich financial group and she was providing the financial support for Vos. She's the least talked about of the Black Three.

That is how Buchtgma get the money for its military operations.

Mave wrote:
I think Amaterasu knows that the Vagires are coming. The Galaxy must be united to face them, so if he can't do it by diplomacy, he must resort to force. Problem is he doesn't unite the galaxy in time....
Vagires? You mean the folks from Stant?
And what about "Problem is he doesn't unite the galaxy in time"?
Do you mean that later the galaxy turns against him?
If so I think that can be explained by the possibly very brutal invasion.

If this is the true reason for Amaterasu's Grand Invasion, then I think it is fundamentally flawed. The Grand Invasion would've weakened both sides - AKD and non-AKD. It would not make sense if Amaterasu really feels threatened by an external force, yet invades everyone else resulting in a weakened AKD. Unless he had very very bad timing.

Many people speculate that Routh's last words might be the reason Amaterasu started the Grand Invasion, but then again he had already prepared all these LED Mirages much earlier - a sign that he had planned for world domination. Perhaps Amaterasu was hesitant and Routh's last words encouraged him to go ahead? Would'nt know until the story unfolds...

Should I say SPOILERS? Highlight to read about Vagires, Stant, etc.

Vagires (is Nagano trying to say Valkyries?) is another name for Satan Life Watching Overlord, those creepy devil looking creatures that appeared in the Water Dragon side story and also came out of the Lid in the Float Temple. I think NSG was trying to say that AKD didnt manage to unify all the four systems so as to be able to lead all Jokerians to fight these Vagires. AKD only managed to conquer Addler and Both before JC3225 - when Stant system was closing in on them (check Timeline). Amaterasu and his Mirage Knights traveled to Stant to fight them. Max died in the battle after defeating Tantsuminley (demon's lord).

Nu Soard Graphite · Post by **Nu Soard Graphite** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:47 am

Rubel Colus wrote:
Hmm, now that you mentioned, I dont recall that it was mentioned anywhere in the manga. Were there any side notes in the English Volumes - the part where Jabo was killed by Vos? Anyway, it was mentioned in Knight Flags and such. For those who are not aware, Beauty is the head of a very huge and rich financial group and she was providing the financial support for Vos. She's the least talked about of the Black Three. That is how Buchtgma get the money for its military operations.

So thats where they got their money from. I was wondering how Vos managed to take over a nation rich enough to be able to take on Hathua plus. Considering that Hathua is the biggest/richest nation on Both, and I'm sure Siburu alone didn't have the MH forces or weath (to build said forces) to take on one of the big boys in the galaxy.

If this is the true reason for Amaterasu's Grand Invasion, then I think it is fundamentally flawed. The Grand Invasion would've weakened both sides - AKD and non-AKD. It would not make sense if Amaterasu really feels threatened by an external force, yet invades everyone else resulting in a weakened AKD. Unless he had very very bad timing. Many people speculate that Routh's last words might be the reason Amaterasu started the Grand Invasion, but then again he had already prepared all these LED Mirages much earlier - a sign that he had planned for world domination. Perhaps Amaterasu was hesitant and Routh's last words encouraged him to go ahead? Would'nt know until the story unfolds...

I too have heard this "rumor" about Routh's last words to Sopp. What are they? It could be anything from "Make the killing stop" to "The galaxy needs someone strong to lead it...someone strong enough to make them all listen..." it could be absolutely anything.
However I have read that the galaxy is thrown into serious political turmoil after the Majestic Stand conflict is finished (which takes 40 years!) and that the power vacuum created by this causes a significant shift in power between nations, causing even more chaos. I'm sure this is the event that gets Amaterasu seriously thinking about beating sense into everyone. Its probably Routh's last words that spurr him into actions that he was already considering.

Should I say SPOILERS? Highlight to read about Vagires, Stant, etc.

Vagires (is Nagano trying to say Valkyries?) is another name for Satan Life Watching Overlord, those creepy devil looking creatures that appeared in the Water Dragon side story and also came out of the Lid in the Float Temple. I think NSG was trying to say that AKD didnt manage to unify all the four systems so as to be able to lead all Jokerians to fight these Vagires. AKD only managed to conquer Addler and Both before JC3225 - when Stant system was closing in on them (check Timeline). Amaterasu and his Mirage Knights traveled to Stant to fight them. Max died in the battle after defeating Tantsuminley (demon's lord).

This is the event about which I wrote earlier. The Vagires invading the Joker Galaxy is an event for which all of Joker should be united against. I believe this is the primary reasoning behind Amaterasu's attempt to unify the galaxy...I could be way off, but I don't think so.

More Spoilers:

It is said that the Mirages get their butt's kicked so badly during the Space War with the Vagires that the creation of the Wunderschatze and the Cloudschatze are a direct result of that. Amaterasu decided he wanted a dedicated space fighter with the power of a MH in his forces because his MH forces got decimated at Stant....

Lalasa · Post by **Lalasa** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:34 pm

Ouch. My favorite character dies in this war between the Vagires and AKD...but wasn't he supposed to marry? The poor wife!

*goes to figure out who else I can obsess over*

S

Nu Soard Graphite · Post by **Nu Soard Graphite** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:15 pm

Lalasa wrote:Ouch. My favorite character dies in this war between the Vagires and AKD...but wasn't he supposed to marry? The poor wife!

*goes to figure out who else I can obsess over*

S

Hey! Don't forget about Amaterasu Mikoto. Dead for nigh on 700 years and still she shows up to help defend Float Temple from Vos and his cronies.

From the opening scene in volume 11 (Japanese) Max seems to be someone of importance in Heaven, so just because Tatsuminre wipes him out doesn't mean that'll be the last we see of him

Rubel Colus · Post by **Rubel Colus** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 5:43 am

Nu Soard Graphite wrote: I too have heard this "rumor" about Routh's last words to Sopp. What are they? It could be anything from "Make the killing stop" to "The galaxy needs someone strong to lead it...someone strong enough to make them all listen..." it could be absolutely anything.
However I have read that the galaxy is thrown into serious political turmoil after the Majestic Stand conflict is finished (which takes 40 years!) and that the power vacuum created by this causes a significant shift in power between nations, causing even more chaos. I'm sure this is the event that gets Amaterasu seriously thinking about beating sense into everyone. Its probably Routh's last words that spurr him into actions that he was already considering.

As crazy as it sounds, it could indeed be for peace. With a unified ruler, there wouldnt be any conflicts between countries since there is only one country

It is true that the Majestic Stand could've caused so much turmoil that someone had to step in, and only AKD would be strong enough for that.

This part of the story reminds me of China's history - the first Emperor of China - Qing Shih-huang, who unified China and through his (tyrannical?) rule, China did enjoy peace for sometime. However in the eyes of the people, he is guilty of bringing down the other countries and causing great sufferings, thus he is hated and is the common enemy of all people. This is very much like Amaterasu and his Grand Invasion.

Since he is so hated, he cannot be accepted by the people. Eventually, the Qin dynasty got overthrown, and finally the people are satisfied and lived in peace for a much longer period, under a new Emperor. IMO, this is similar to Colus overthrowing AKD, and the people can finally accept a unified country and a single ruler because they chose Colus.

Amaterasu is taking up the blame to be the initiator for the Grand Invasion, yet unknown to the people of Joker, his main purpose is for peace. Perhaps he knows that he cannot be accepted, and the people can only accept a ruler whom they have chosen, i.e. Colus XXVI. Peace should follow under this new ruler. (Unfortunately, the writer states that Joker will be in chaos again, without a wise ruler. I blame it on the nature of people as a whole. )