Orguss Mecha Question

[Tachyon]

Hello, all. Another Orguss question.

There's an Emaan mech called the Mora-ba- (モラーバー). How would you render that in English letters? Moraabaa? Morava? Moravar?

[Falk]

With a picture search for モラーバー, I found some kit of a sort of spaceship called "M Lover", looks like there's two versions, Maaie & Lieea :
http://www.geocities.jp/j02i924/page009.html
http://www.h3.dion.ne.jp/~i_tyaku/vk/mbm.htm
http://www.h3.dion.ne.jp/~i_tyaku/vk/mbl.htm
ANoher one on ebay

Hope that the right one^^

[Tachyon]

Kazutaka Miyatake Design Works confirms that M.Lover is the right rendering. What a dopey sounding name!

[Nightmare of Solomon]

Considering the frequency of R-L translation errorrs in Japanese sources- would it be better to think of this mecha as the M-Rover? (M for manipulator perhaps)-

Just a thought-

[Tachyon]

M.Rover sounds a whole lot better to me. The model boxes and the reference in the art book seem to indicate that the weight of tradition is backing up "M.Lover" though. I'll bet this is a romanization mistake that was made back in 1983 and just stuck.

[Norsehound]

Hey! I always call them M-lovers!

Drifand-Dee and Drifand-Dal are 80s isque names too, but that's all part of the feel of Orguss.

[Tachyon]

Mark Stout's page lists the "Hasai Cannon" - you know, the big beam cannon mounted on the Glomar. I looked up the cannon in my books and it looks like the name Hasai Cannon is a half translation. Hasai is apparently a word in Japanese that means demolish, crush, break into pieces. Wouldn't it be better to call it the Demolisher Cannon?

[KOG]

Well, we all say Hyaku Shiki, and not 'type 100'.

I always think it's best to stick with traditionally used versions of names.

[Tachyon]

You raise some good points but I'm still not decided.

For one thing, when I was watching through the Z Gundam episodes on DVD I kept wondering why they didn't say "Type 100." It seemed like a sloppy way to translate.

Does Mark Stout's Web page establish a "traditionally used version" of Orguss names? It's just one fan site. I need to see more evidence that English speaking fans agree on the name "Hasai Cannon."

Another issue will arise with what Mark Stout calls the Emaan Flyer. Everywhere I see it depicted in the This Is Animation Special books it's called the Deemora.

[KOG]

You raise some good points but I'm still not decided.

For one thing, when I was watching through the Z Gundam episodes on DVD I kept wondering why they didn't say "Type 100." It seemed like a sloppy way to translate.

Well, I haven't watched a lot of Gundam, so I can't be certain here... but isn't there a fundamental difference between the naming of Hyaku Shiki and most other Gundam designs?

I mean, when written strictly with japanese characters, don't most designs use katakana for their names? Things like Gundam Mk II and Zeta Gundam are written out in katakana aren't they? So they're always meant to be read aloud in 'english'. Whereas with Hyaku Shiki, they don't write out 'hyaku shiki' in katakana do they? Don't they use the kanji for it? And if they use the kanji for it, unlike other gundam names, doesn't it imply that the name isn't intended to be rendered in english?

And similarly, if you look at kit boxes... things like Gundam Mk II and Zeta Gundam are written in english, prominently on the box. But Hyaku Shiki kits never have 'type 100' written as the name on the box. It's always 'hyaku shiki'.

And the final clincher may be the animation itself... what do the characters in the show say? Do they refer to the Gundams by their english names? (I know there's no japanese translation for certain Gundam names, but I'm talking about the ones that CAN be translated) Or do they say the names in Japanese?

[Tachyon]

I don't know what the characters said in the dub. I watched it subtitled. But in Japanese the characters say "Hyaku Shiki" which means "Type 100."

A name like "Gundam" is a made-up name. There's no possibility of translation. All you can do is say it.

If model boxes for years have had English letters spelling out "Hyaku Shiki" then that does establish a tradition. I don't buy model kits but that would explain why the Z Gundam episodes used the name as is. Still, I'd much rather hear American fans say Type 100 than butcher the pronunciation of Hyaku Shiki.

I guess I'm a purist sometimes. I don't want to force my views on others but I like a chance to express them.

Gundam issues aside, I don't think there's much of a tradition of translating Orguss names since Orguss was never released in English speaking countries. Sure, there was that U.S. Renditions halfway job but they never finished it. Plus not many people bought it.

If there's some sort of tradition for translating Orguss names I'll give it serious consideration but I haven't yet seen the evidence.

If Mark Stout's site can claim authority on names that's one thing. However, I don't want to follow Stout's page just to follow it. I would hate to get an angry Email from him accusing me of copying his site.

[hitori]

I tried to look up why Hyakushiki is written and read in Japanese and found a scan of the construction manual.
Although it didn't answer the original question, it shows where the name comes from.
I thought I'd share it here.

...While in development, the Hyakushiki was originally codenamed the δ(delta) Gundam, since it followed the development of Rick Dias. (codenamed γ(gamma) Gundam)
There is a theory that number 100 follows Rick Dias' RMS-099, but in fact this was a decoy to fool the Federation intelligence.
The development code used within Anaheim Electronics company for the Rick Dias was MSA-009.
Hyakushiki's serial MSN was formed by adding the initial N of the chief developer Dr. M.Nagano to the regular MS.
Since this was Dr. Nagano's first project, it was to be named MSN-001, but due to the doctor's strong wishes 00 was added to make it 00100.
It was also often shortened to MSN-100.

The reason Dr. Nagano's insisted on the number 100 was due to his hopes that this MS would last for a hundred years.

So it's more or less Nagano trying to be all different from everyone else.
Since Gundam is set in an era where race and heritege has become homogenized, I guess using a Japanese name wasn't considered so wierd.

[KOG]

I don't know what the characters said in the dub. I watched it subtitled. But in Japanese the characters say "Hyaku Shiki" which means "Type 100."

I was actually asking about the original japanese version. Not the dub.

A name like "Gundam" is a made-up name. There's no possibility of translation. All you can do is say it.

Yes, but there are a lot of Gundam names, or portions of Gundam names, that can be rendered in japanese. The 'mk' in 'Gundam mk II' probably has a japanese equivalent. But do they ever use it? Or do they just say 'mk' in the japanese dialogue? And what about Gundams from newer shows.... 'wing gundam', 'freedom gundam', 'destiny gundam'... These names use distinctly english words. Words that COULD be translated into japanese. But they use the english words on purpose, as part of the names. These names are always written in english on kit boxes. I haven't seen the shows, but I'm betting they actuall SAY 'freedom gundam' in the original japanese dialogue. They don't use the japanese translation on purpose. It's a conscious decision to use english words in the names of these particular designs. Which is why the names are written fully in katakana when someone bothers to use japanese characters for the names. Unlike Hyaku Shiki. Hyaku Shiki is a case where they could have easily called it a 'Type 100'. They could have had the japanese voice actors say 'Type 100', and they could have written 'Type 100' on kit boxes and in reference books. But they never do, as far as I know.

Check this box as an example:
http://www.hlj.com/product/BAN900584

Now compare to something like the Master Gundam box:
http://www.hlj.com/product/BAN908827

'Master' is a word that surely has a japanese equivalent, but they decide to use the english version of the word on purpose. Unlike with the Hyaku Shiki.

If model boxes for years have had English letters spelling out "Hyaku Shiki" then that does establish a tradition. I don't buy model kits but that would explain why the Z Gundam episodes used the name as is. Still, I'd much rather hear American fans say Type 100 than butcher the pronunciation of Hyaku Shiki.

For years indeed. Every Hyaku Shiki box I've ever seen says 'Hyaki Shiki'. Some more examples:

http://www.hlj.com/product/BAN926793
http://www.hlj.com/product/BAN77171

In the case of Hyaku Shiki, I just think it's traditional to refer to it as 'Hyaku Shiki', even in english conversation/usage. There are other things that don't really get translated too... like the 'Kai' in 'RXF-91 Kai' or 'GM Kai'.

I guess I'm a purist sometimes. I don't want to force my views on others but I like a chance to express them.

Well, it's an interesting subject. I'm more or less of the feeling that translating proper names for things is a bit different than translating a bit of text or dialogue. Take some names like 'Francois'... or 'Jaime'... or 'José'. If someone with one of those names comes up and talks to you... can you just call them 'Frank', or 'Jim', or 'Joe', just because those are the common english equivalents? I'd say no. I think it's a bit of a similar situation with mecha names. I mean.... a LOT of japanese mecha names are rendered in katakana. So they clearly intend a western, or 'non-japanese' flavor for the names. On the rare exceptions when they use a purely japanese name, it really does seem like it's intentional.

Let's look over at FSS for a moment. We have a lot of clearly english names... 'Empress Flame', 'Knight of Gold', 'Speed Mirage', 'Siren', and so on. These names are always written out in english characters on the kit boxes. And in books, if the names aren't written in english characters, then they are written in katakana. The names are never rendered into pure japanese, even in a publication meant only for japanese consumption. And then all of a sudden you get something like the Mighty Series MH. All of these MH started out with purely japanese names. Forgive me if I mess these names up, but they are something like 'Ikazuchi Maru', 'Suio Maru', and 'Akatsuki Hime'. I probably messed those up pretty bad... Anyways. Those names have english translations, but they are never used, except by english speakers. The english versions, such as 'Dawn Princess', never appear in any japanese publications, as far as I know. Dawn Princess is a very simple translation right? So why is Empress Flame always written in westernized fashion, but Dawn Princess is always rendered in japanese? Again, this seems like a very purposeful decision.
I can't speak about Mighty Series kit boxes... since most seem to have the later names for the designs on them. Hydra Mirage, LED Bubiron's, LED Mirage B4... but one box that I have clearly shows some kanji behind the LED Mirage B4 label. I'm fairly sure that the kanji is for 'Akatsuki Hime'. But the english rendering... Dawn Princes... appears nowhere on the box. Why would they do this, when names like 'Phantom', 'Black Knight', and others are clearly printed out in english characters on kit boxes? Just another sign that the usage of purely japanese names, when it occurs, is purposeful.

Anyways, that's my take on the issue. I've never actually thought about this issue this much before. I hope I'm not coming across as overly arguementative...

[Tachyon]

Thanks for the good discussion and thank you, hitori, for the reference. It does shed light on the issue.

Since the number 100 is written with the kanji character instead of the western numerals now commonly used in Japan I'll concede the production team for the Z Gundam TV show were trying to create a special new name.

As for Orguss, the Glomar's special cannon is written up like this in my book:

巨大なビーム兵器。破砕砲。

My translation would be:
"[An] Enormous beam weapon. Demolisher Cannon."

[TSP]

So looks like no one have the old Animeigo VHS tapes of Orguss.