The Emperor Rescue (En. books 15~20), questions ^_^

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Falk
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The Emperor Rescue (En. books 15~20), questions ^_^

Post by Falk » Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:57 pm

-In the first few pages, we see Sopp remembering when talking about fatimas' names with Ballanche. Behind him there's Rogner reading a newspaper, Lie Ex working on a LED and a lot of fatimas. The LED has a skull face, but there's also a weird creature in its forehead, what is it ?
An etrimil used during developpement ?
Or just a prow figure like on ancient boats ?

-The whole baby Sopp episode... mmh... yeah ? So basically cuz' Mikoto was lacking emotions around baby Sopp he was not moving ? Then when she finally shows some emotion when the doctor talks about Sopp as a puppet, he finally reacts by creating the monster she just talked about ?
Then Joker (the universe ruler ?) comes to save her, well to erase all this mess, and cuz' it may be his first appearance in the material universe he gets the form Mikoto creates in her mind ?

But then he realises Sopp created him uh ? How ? In the future when he's the god of light ?

Then the scene changes, we're now in space, and Joker realises he's in 2988, why this date ? Is it after Mikoto's death ? Cuz' he says "We must witness !! We must go !! The body that woman made for me is for that very purpose !!", so does that mean he has to stay in the "material universe" to watch Sopp until he's the god of light ?

And then why does he save Potar ? Just "for the sake of it" ? Cuz' she's the first person he meats when starting his journey in the material universe ?

Then I don't really understand what Uranium Balance says. He talks about Sopp having to learn how to feel emotions, then goes on to talk about how to create fatimas... What's the link ?
Is it related to the fact that Ballanche's fatimas can't attack Sopp ? (or they can't attack him just cuz' he was their "nanny" in the past as said in book 16 ?)
Last edited by Falk on Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Tachyon » Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:41 pm

-The whole baby Sopp episode... mmh... yeah ? So basically cuz' Mikoto was lacking emotions around baby Sopp he was not moving ? Then when she finally shows some emotion when the doctor talks about Sopp as a puppet, he finally reacts by creating the monster she just talked about ?
Then Joker (the universe ruler ?) comes to save her, well to erase all this mess, and cuz' it may be his first appearance in the material universe he gets the form Mikoto creates in her mind ?
I'm afraid I'm just not a very good person to address in-depth FSS questions but I'll give it a try. Anyways, it's fun to discuss!

It seems that Sopp was a very different sort of person. His birth, getting genetic information from only one parent, his divine destiny - just not an ordinary person. I get the impression that baby Sopp was very advanced mentally but handicapped emotionally. Most babies are born selfish and not knowing much and slowly develop to the point where they are able to put aside their selfish inclinations. Sopp, on the other hand, was really smart and powerful yet very confused by the emotional side of himself. The mother-child bond was strong for Sopp and his mother just like it is with all children so he looked to her for guidance. She wasn't showing emotion in his presense so he followed along. When she displayed a flash of strong emotion Sopp got caught up in it and felt a need to protect his mother.

My own impression is that Joker took on physical form and entered the world of humans for 2 reasons: 1) as a deity he had to fulfill certain requirements and resonsibilities 2) he realized the importance of the deity that Sopp would become in the future and saw a need to intervene and make sure nothing prevents the future from happening. It seems like in coming to the empress' aid (and since she's such a potent diver) Joker's appearance and form was influenced by her.
But then he realises Sopp created him uh ? How ? In the future when he's the god of light ?
I think Joker is acknowledging a debt that he will owe Amaterasu after the deity does something important in the future. Certain scenes of FSS involve a lot of skipping around in time and events that defy the normal flow of time. As readers we need to fill in a number of blanks ourselves. But then, when we mortals discuss the deeds and motives of deities, isn't it only natural that there will be things we don't understand? :D
Then the scene changes, we're now in space, and Joker realises he's in 2988, why this date ? Is it after Mikoto's death ? Cuz' he says "We must witness !! We must go !! The body that woman made for me is for that very purpose !!", so does that mean he has to stay in the "material universe" to watch Sopp until he's the god of light ?
Again, I can only offer my own fanboy guesses. Joker is the deity of the Joker universe. Amaterasu goes on to become a deity that operates beyond or outside of Joker but he began life as a Joker resident. That creates a connection between Amaterasu and Joker. Perhaps Joker will carry out the duty of testifying at Amaterasu's deification before a council of other godly beings. "Yes, this is Amaterasu. I witnessed his life and transformation in the Joker universe. I support his claim of coming into godhood."

It seems Joker has a responsibility to directly, in the flesh, witness Amaterasu's career before becoming a deity. When Joker thinks about this to himself, his mind flashes over major events that he will witness before giving up his physical body among the humans.
And then why does he save Potar ? Just "for the sake of it" ? Cuz' she's the first person he meats when starting his journey in the material universe ?
I think Nagano is making a nod to traditional stories when Joker takes the first person he meets, Potar, and revives her just before she dies. Joker is securing both a servant and a companion. Lords and gods in many traditional stories didn't travel without trusted servants and Joker's time in a physical body can be seen as a "journey."
Then I don't really understand what Uranium Balance says. He talks about Sopp having to learn how to feel emotions, then goes on to talk about how to create fatimas... What's the link ?
Is it related to the fact that Ballanche's fatimas can't attack Sopp ? (or they can't attack him just cuz' he was their "nanny" in the past as said in book 16?
I'm really not sure about this one but it's fun to think about. Fatimas weren't being used to copilot mortar headds at the time of Sopp's infancy. Uranium was a physician and expert on biological matters. He was told that Sopp was a result of genetic materials from only one parent - one source. He talks about fatimas because they have only one source for their genetic material too. In this scene, I don't think Ballanche's fatimas' connection to the adult Sopp has any relation.
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Re: English Book 15 (JP 7), questions ^_^

Post by Rubel Colus » Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:52 am

wow so many questions and its hard to address them without going into lengthy discussions =P

==
Falk wrote:-The whole baby Sopp episode... mmh... yeah ? So basically cuz' Mikoto was lacking emotions around baby Sopp he was not moving ? Then when she finally shows some emotion when the doctor talks about Sopp as a puppet, he finally reacts by creating the monster she just talked about ?
Then Joker (the universe ruler ?) comes to save her, well to erase all this mess, and cuz' it may be his first appearance in the material universe he gets the form Mikoto creates in her mind ?
The latest explanation is that Sopp does not gain any genes from Mikoto, in fact he just appears in her womb out of nowhere. Reason is he is a god, and Mikoto was just chosen to bore him into this world. Tachyon is right that Sopp has awesome intellect immediately at his birth, however, not only does he not show any emotion, it seems that he does not react to anything physical at all. That’s why we see baby Sopp just staring straight into nothing. Sopp sensed Mikoto’s thoughts about summoning a monster, and he did it on behalf of her, since she had “wished” it. However, it seems like Sopp did not know how to control the monster or how to send it back.
Falk wrote:But then he realises Sopp created him uh ? How ? In the future when he's the god of light ?

Then the scene changes, we're now in space, and Joker realises he's in 2988, why this date ? Is it after Mikoto's death ? Cuz' he says "We must witness !! We must go !! The body that woman made for me is for that very purpose !!", so does that mean he has to stay in the "material universe" to watch Sopp until he's the god of light ?
Joker is the personification of the Joker Universe, and he gets a “physical body” because it’s easier for humans to relate to. BTW, Sopp is already termed a “god of light”. The term is used because he has the ability to manipulate photon energy – that’s where his powers come from. He is just imitating the divers when he uses his ‘diver powers’ – real divers get their powers differently. It is only after 7777 when he merged with Lachesis that they are complete, and becomes the omnipotent god Amaterasu Oomikami. It is Amaterasu Oomikami who created the Joker Universe and thus the god Joker. So you see there is time paradox here. Time is irrelevant for beings of higher dimensions, so we have to think out of “time” to understand this.

Joker, being a creation of Amaterasu Oomikami, is programmed to help Sopp during this time. His first program is to turn on the “switch” which allows Sopp to react to the physical world, that’s why baby Sopp can now react to (see) the butterfly. Next, Joker realizes he has a second program – to stay in the physical world at Sopp’s side. We learn from Designs 1 that one of his purpose is to limit Sopp’s powers to prevent them from being out-of-control. During his time within the Joker Universe, Sopp is actually a lesser being than the dragons and the god Joker, but as Amaterasu Oomikami, he is above all of them. It seems that Joker is responsible for Sopp’s temporary loss of powers since he has control over them. Real reason is unknown, but I suspect is for Sopp to “progress” perhaps by learning emotions. . He seems to have learnt about being “helpless” and maybe also “panic” in the situation when he couldn’t regenerate himself.
Falk wrote:Then I don't really understand what Uranium Balance says. He talks about Sopp having to learn how to feel emotions, then goes on to talk about how to create fatimas... What's the link ?
Is it related to the fact that Ballanche's fatimas can't attack Sopp ? (or they can't attack him just cuz' he was their "nanny" in the past as said in book 16 ?)
Why Uranium Balance’s speech? Because Sopp is originally totally devoid of emotions. He is like a computer, taking in information as knowledge and he acts based on the data. He does not understand emotions, it is meaningless to him. But to live in this world, he must be able to show emotions so that he seems like a “normal” person. How to show emotions when he does not even understand them? Uranium proposed to Mikoto to teach Sopp emotions by “acting” out reactions based on the situation. For instance, when Vos was killed in 2121, Mikoto told Sopp to act sad because someone died. So in Sopp’s view, this is one “example” in his emotion database – when a person dies, I have to act like this which is called “sad”. However, in order to be natural, the list of examples must be very huge! That is why Sopp is still learning. This is identical to fatimas, where they also learn emotions by examples. So in this aspect, Sopp is similar to a Fatima. Of course during Uranium’s time, fatimas are only at theory stage, but it forms the basis of what fatimas will be.

In fact, Emperor Amaterasu uses different identities to “learn” about emotions. Ladios Sopp, Lady Sopp and Mel Rince seems to display more emotion than Emperor Amaterasu and Agari. It is only in 2989 – almost 1000years after his birth, that Sopp truly begins to understand about sadness when his best pal Chrome Ballanche died. Before this, he was only "acting", but now he started to truely understand. He still has a long way ahead of him.

As for Ballanche's fatimas not being able to attack Sopp... Firstly, because Sopp has been with them all the time since young, and Sopp is somewhat a super-master to them all. Secondly, it seems Chrome Ballanche programmed it into them, to make them unable to fight Sopp or his Mirages.
Falk wrote:And then why does he save Potar ? Just "for the sake of it" ? Cuz' she's the first person he meats when starting his journey in the material universe ?
I think Joker saved Potar to have a companion. It seems Potar is no longer a Fatima now, more like a spiritual being, but usually she’ll appear normal.
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Re: English Book 15 (JP 7), questions ^_^

Post by elemental » Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:20 am

Rubel Colus wrote:As for Ballanche's fatimas not being able to attack Sopp... Firstly, because Sopp has been with them all the time since young, and Sopp is somewhat a super-master to them all. Secondly, it seems Chrome Ballanche programmed it into them, to make them unable to fight Sopp or his Mirages.
Considering what has recently been revealed here about the Mirages and the LEDs being basically invincible, it is possible that Ballanche programmed his fatimas to be unable to fight the Mirages as a sort of failsafe mechanism to help ensure their survival. You would expect fatimas who don't fight Mirages to live longer, afterall.
I think Joker saved Potar to have a companion. It seems Potar is no longer a Fatima now, more like a spiritual being, but usually she’ll appear normal.
Whatever his reason, the act of saving Potar is somehat of a clue, if not a give away, as to Spector's true identity.

As for the whole baby Sopp thing... I think there are definite parallels between Sopp and Suezou. Suezou starts out as a fairly helpless comical "chicken thing" that becomes a hugely powerful dragon. Sopp starts out as a comatose child and eventually becomes the ultimate god. Nagano is telling the story of a god "growing up". We get to see his evolution from helpless to all powerful, including the phase of his evolution where his behaviour is approximately human i.e. the story from 2988 to 3030 (or where ever we are up to) and beyond.

Hmmm... 20 years to go from 2988 to 3030... will we ever see the end of FSS? :?

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Post by Falk » Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:29 am

Wow, extensive answers, thanks guys^^

I have to say that I always have trouble conceptualizing those stories based on fate, time paradox, etc etc...
I mean, a supreme god, Amaterasu Oomikami, for whom time means nothing, decides to come to birth somewhere (ok, in the most powerful family of the whole galaxy :þ), while birth inevitably means a certain moment in time, but, maybe just for fun, he comes to birth as a... mmh... guy ? named Sopp, but, also as a robot woman named Lachesis whom creation is really a sum of lucky events...

I'd like to say that even if time means nothing for him, his existence has to start somewhere-sometime anyway (how to picture that, mmh... like a train (Ama') starting his journey (existence) from a parking zone (birth, childhood, growing), and once the train leaves the parking zone (material universe) and comes across the rail points, it can't come back, but then the train is on the whole rail network (infinity, heavens, godly universe, one way or the other...)) but this doesn't really work, as if time means nothing, it means nothing at all anywhere, anytime, so... It's all or nothing, it can't mean something sometime, and nothing another time (hey, the sentence is a paradox "time means nothing sometime" *doh, my brain is overheating*).

OK, I know I'm taking this to seriously/mathematically...

So, thanks to your explanations and opinions, all I can make out of it, is that he has to live as a human (or almost like one), just so he/she/it knows emotions, good/bad, love/hate, light/darkness, warm/cold, metal/pop, PC/macintosh (looks like they missed his education on this point) etc etc, to be a good god :wink:
So I'll keep it that way, and to hell with paradox, that's what paradox are made for, else it's not a paradox :wink: (I have a strong feeling what I'm saying doesn't mean anything... Beware, as a Blame! fan, I'm skilled in talking non-sens about time paradox, I did pages of it on a messageboard... ok it was easier as it was in French^^).

[quote="Rubel Colus]Real reason is unknown, but I suspect is for Sopp to “progress” perhaps by learning emotions.[/quote]

Mmh yep'. That point came to me recently. I was browsing through the first book, and I was thinking about how the Mirage Knight massacre in front of Ballanche house doesn't really fit with the rest of the manga, particularly after seeing Sopp feeling he's had enough when one of Rogner's agent is blown to pieces (at least a few ones) instead of him and Atropos (Suezou is absolutely hilarious BTW^^).
Spaccorn is also presented as a killing machine is the 1st book, but later (particularly in the upcoming book 12 where he saves Haird Grover + Magdall) he looks way more diplomatic, I mean the guys he kills in book 1 are not headdliners, they're mere soldiers that I'm sure would've run away if they had time to :þ

Well it may also be manga inconcistencies :wink: and I really wonder how Ama' will turn into an awefull dictator... Or whatever happens, Ama' evolves from a totally different way than Sopp ? (I could talk a lot about that too... :wink: IMO someone's mostly defined by his experiences/memories/feelings, if one alias doesn't feel, or even remembers the same thing as the other, what still links them in the end ?! :roll: )

Random thought, Lachesis DNA is YY, so as Sopp comes from only one parent (his mum), could he be XX ?
Really not sure as what Rubel says seems to mean that he just appeared in Mikado's womb, but if he's XX, this would match Lachesis' YY when they merge as Amaterasu Oomikami, no ?
(But what about fatima Optical Tai Phone ? She's got YY on her suit, and she looks to be special... mmh this part with Diamond Neutral talking about a scroll needs another topic, don't bother talk about that in this one^^)
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Post by Falk » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:50 pm

Here's one more^^

Allen Bradford fights against a Rogner agent, miss Space Force. Well she's supposed to be one of the fastest sword of Babiron (except Rogner himself maybe :P ), but get's beaten pretty easily by Bradford.

Then later, Sopp & Atropos are spotted by an MH (blue armor I think, or maybe heavy zakker, I can't verify right now), and a lady jumps in front of them and takes the lazer hit directly. Atropos puts her in suspended animation while Swe examines her leg :P

So are they different persons and the first one dies ? (as Bradford tells her not to move and she moves anyway) And this one's another coming out of nowhere ?
Or is it the same headdliner, who finds enough strengh despite having internals ruptured ? (they're all so loyal and ready to die for an immortal emperor that you never know :wink: )
Cuz' they look totally similar (same face but same dress as well, both of them even have similar elbow pads). And in FSS designs, there are 2 ladies with Russian names, but pretty similar look too (except different outfits).

Also at the end of the whole episode (where they count casualties and deaths) we see an officer sobbing aside a woman in a bed. Is it Meyer Von Toccata ? If so that mean he was only wounded ? I thought he was dead.

To sum up, who dies ? Who makes it through ?
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Post by hitori » Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:54 pm

Falk wrote:So are they different persons and the first one dies ? (as Bradford tells her not to move and she moves anyway) And this one's another coming out of nowhere ?
Same person.
They edited out a few pages of her fight with Braford so it can be a bit unclear.
Falk wrote:Also at the end of the whole episode (where they count casualties and deaths) we see an officer sobbing aside a woman in a bed. Is it Meyer Von Toccata ? If so that mean he was only wounded ?
You are correct.
Because he is a high ranking officer, the Sibil soldiers were ordered to capture him alive.
He was only temporarily immobilized and would have been treated immediately as Miss AKD Space Force calls in for rescue team after she defeats the armored soldiers.
And the woman he's sitting next to is Miss AKD Space Force.
Though she's a Knight, she was probably treated with regular soldiers to maintain her cover.
Falk wrote:To sum up, who dies ? Who makes it through ?
KIA:
Yuri Vashchenko (Tank captain) and his tank battalion.
Headdliner Panhead (probably)
Headdliner wearing dreadlocks (most likely)
Jude Maki and other footsoldiers.
Mirage Knight Shaft.

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Post by Falk » Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:40 pm

Thanks for the quick answer^^
hitori wrote:Same person.
They edited out a few pages of her fight with Braford so it can be a bit unclear.
Ha m'kay, so in fact she's quite tough^^.
The "original" fight is in Tales Of Joker I guess ? (are there many edited parts like that ? as we've already talked about the Blood Temple pages)

So, just to be sure, the two extract picture the same person, but isInna Petrova her real identity and Elena Kunikova the name she uses under cover ? (cuz' in FSS design, one is 1m68 height, the other is 1m70 :roll: )
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Post by hitori » Sat Apr 01, 2006 12:30 am

Falk wrote:So, just to be sure, the two extract picture the same person, but is Inna Petrova her real identity and Elena Kunikova the name she uses under cover ? (cuz' in FSS design, one is 1m68 height, the other is 1m70)
Inna Petrova and Elena Kunikova don't seem to be the same person.
Inna is a space fighter pilot.
I don't quite see why you think they look the same either. :D

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Post by Falk » Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:33 am

Ha m'kay, I haven't seen any Inna Petrova anywhere, well I don't remember having seen her. And the 2 ladies look pretty similar in FSS Designs (almost the same face), that's why I was confused^^.

Thanks for clearing this^^

(This talk about a copy of FSS Designs just boosted me to my 400th post :wink: )
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