FSS question - Super Empire MH

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Xenoex

FSS question - Super Empire MH

Post by Xenoex » Fri May 25, 2007 10:13 pm

Hi all, I'm new to the board and recent comer to the FSS scene, a truly brilliant manga!

In volume 9 of the Japanese and Chinese FFS manga, roughly page 180, where the Super Empire is declaring war against the Dragons, there are a few strange looking MH's (actually, they were refered to as Machine Messiahs back then, not Motar hheads, right?).

Does anybody know what they are called, and whether there are any models for them? They look really cool, and have a distinct design from most of the other MH we know. They kinda look like mechanized samurai's. :D The one in the middle has horns similar to Neptune and Prominence.

Infact, the Chinese characters on the shield of the middle one says "Prominence" and the ones on the shield of the one next to it says "Neptune".

I thought they would bring out Yen Xing and MM Auge, but I guess they are from different Super Empire eras (I'm not too familiar with the time lines, its too confusing). Or maybe these special MM/MH are even more powerful than Yen Xing and Auge?! (since they are going up against the Dragons, they better bring out the best they got)

I also noticed that the head LED Dragon looks different to what we've seen earlier in the manga, its actually got metallic fins and armor on it?! :shock: Cool stuff.

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Post by Falk » Sat May 26, 2007 10:53 am

Yo, I copy/paste my answer from hobbyfan here, you'll get some more accurate answers from specialists^^
Me ^_^ wrote:Mmh I think the names on the shields are the pilots' names. Prominence is a Super Empire (SE) sword saints, as well as Skinzu & Kulmars, and some others, maybe a guy named Neptune is one of them too, or maybe he's "just" a knight, I don't know.
Some MH names are tribute to the powerful character of this faraway past.

On this power balance chart, you can see that SE knights < SE machine messiah < Yen Xing, which may be logical as Yen Xing was obviously a late SE MM (as when we see them, it's a sort of "come back" from the SE, before living once gain I guess), while those samurai like MM are from the early SE.

About Auge, while it's called a Machine Messiah, I don't think it's the same MM as the SE MM. According to the mortarheadd history page on Gears, the "grand head" precedeed the "machine messiah" then the "mortarheadd". But the three of them are from the Joker era, not the SE era.
So while it may be more powerful than many MH, I guess it may be pwned by SE MM.

On the chart, Empress of flame guard Astaroth isn't the MH alright? if I'm not mistaking, he's the weird, bug-like guy messing with crystals on top of the SE mothership (I think the crystals are in fact the SE characters in their "purest form").

Anyway, there are no models of those SE MM, not enough reference I guess to make an accurate kit.

(and about the dragon, I don't know^^ Nagano is pretty inconcistent, so he may just draw them as he wish, more mechanical or more biological...)
Oh and yeah, while this power balance chart may not be totally accurate (see Lachesis...), or be subject to change, the SE MM would've probably been PWNED by the dragons, hence why the Empress realises her error before its to late, and why Princess Yarn is uh... "famous" amongst dragons (some demons may have killed a dragon though, I'm not sure)
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Xenoex

Post by Xenoex » Sat May 26, 2007 12:33 pm

Cool, a familiar from HF :D

Oh yeah, did the Empress actually instigate the battle against the Dragons? Or was she unaware of it until the last moment, and comes to stop it?

From what I read, it seems to say that the Emperor/King circle reigning on the planet were the ones that decided to start the war. They may have done so while following the Empress' orders, or were acting on their on accord. I believe it's the later, though I could be wrong.

And you are right, they wouldve been wasted by the Dragons. The Dragons can dodge buster launcher shots by teleporting, and can dish out attacks more powerful than busters. They are pretty much invincible against anything man-made. :twisted:

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Re: FSS question - Super Empire MH

Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Sat May 26, 2007 7:50 pm

Xenoex wrote:Hi all, I'm new to the board and recent comer to the FSS scene, a truly brilliant manga!

In volume 9 of the Japanese and Chinese FFS manga, roughly page 180, where the Super Empire is declaring war against the Dragons, there are a few strange looking MH's (actually, they were refered to as Machine Messiahs back then, not Motar hheads, right?).
Correct. Pre-J.C. era = Machine Messiah. Early J.C. era Grand Headd. Modern J.C. era = Mortar Headd. Late J.C. era, Mortar Messiah (specifically the LED Mirage)
Does anybody know what they are called, and whether there are any models for them? They look really cool, and have a distinct design from most of the other MH we know. They kinda look like mechanized samurai's. :D The one in the middle has horns similar to Neptune and Prominence.
No clue as to what they are called. I would like to know this as well. Do they wield Busters? I would assume so if they intended to battle Joker Dragons!
the Chinese characters on the shield of the middle one says "Prominence" and the ones on the shield of the one next to it says "Neptune".
Yeah, A.D. era Sword Saints. Many moder era MH's are named after famous Super Empire Chevaliers.
ht they would bring out Yen Xing and MM Auge, but I guess they are from different Super Empire eras (I'm not too familiar with the time lines, its too confusing). Or maybe these special MM/MH are even more powerful than Yen Xing and Auge?! (since they are going up against the Dragons, they better bring out the best they got)
well...I don't think that even a Yen Xing would have a chance against a Dragon. Not even a LED Mirage would have much of a chance (and they're superior to even a Yen Xing!) Perhaps those Machine Messiah were developed specifically with battling Dragons and Demons in mind. It makes sense...they were being piloted by the best the Super Empire had to offer.
I also noticed that the head LED Dragon looks different to what we've seen earlier in the manga, its actually got metallic fins and armor on it?! :shock: Cool stuff.
Well, thats because it was a "different" LED Dragon from the one seen normally. Even though the dragons are technically immortal, their physical shell eventually wears out, so the dragons body "dies" and their mind/spirit is reborn into a new form...thats what Suezo and Yan Qie are...Dragonlings that have yet to evolve into their final form. Thus each time their old physical body dies, the new one will develop physical differences.
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Post by Euhsung » Sat May 26, 2007 9:25 pm

Specifically. the ones seen in the Dragon settlement are 'Machine Mess'. Machine Messiahs are seen in the late AD era; Yen Xing and Auge are in that category (even though YS counts as MMess, they make their debut after AD8000). The late AD MMs are slightly more powerful, due to refinements in technology; to be honest, MH-fatima combinations are theoretically a match for most MM (assuming pilots are on the same level). Apparently, the Machine mess are customized to each Sword Saint, hence the differences. They are probably named after the Chivalry that pilots them; hence the fancy writing.

LED Mirage can take down anything; it's an absolute. No god, MH, MS, android, knight or diver can take them down; until 7777, their win-loss record is perfect. Only ODK can defeat it (in theory), and that's because of Clothos. However, it fought to a standstill with KOG AT, so a tossup will basically never happen. For LED, it is restrained at all times; the knight and Fatima is just another restraint and means to focus its destructive capability; otherwise, it will raze everything. On its own, the LEDs would have razed the float temple except for the areas with the AKD logo on it (progammed into it) if not for the restraints built into it.

Xenoex

Post by Xenoex » Sat May 26, 2007 11:08 pm

@Nu Soard Graphite:

Yes, it specifically says in the manga that they had buster launchers aimed at the dragons and were prepared to fire.

Also, the demons only appeared twice right? Once in the flashback to a very old time when the princess preyed to the Water Dragon god to help get rid of the Demons. And once again when they were breaking free of the spell while caged in the Float Temple.

I wish they elaborated on that, why were they caged in the Float Temple? When and how did it happen? And what was that massive 4 eyed thing that sealed them back (or did the Dragon seal the Demons back)? It'd be so cool to see the Demons fighting against Mortar headds.

@Euhsung

LED Mirage sounds totally hardcore. I've only finished up to issue 11, and I must say the LED M hasnt appeared that many times, and hasn't done as much as what its true capabilities predict. I hope it'll do more in issues 12 and onwards. At least, I wanna see them in action with Boomerang and Napalm pack.

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Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Sun May 27, 2007 3:39 am

Euhsung wrote:Specifically. the ones seen in the Dragon settlement are 'Machine Mess'. Machine Messiahs are seen in the late AD era; Yen Xing and Auge are in that category (even though YS counts as MMess, they make their debut after AD8000). The late AD MMs are slightly more powerful, due to refinements in technology; to be honest, MH-fatima combinations are theoretically a match for most MM (assuming pilots are on the same level). Apparently, the Machine mess are customized to each Sword Saint, hence the differences. They are probably named after the Chivalry that pilots them; hence the fancy writing.
Ah...so "Machine Mess" is not a shortened/lazy version of Machine Messiah. Thats interesting. So now we have the progression;
Machine Mess
Machine Messiah
Grand Headd
Mortar Headd
Mortar Messiah
M.M.T. (Machine Messiah Taika???)

Of course, the M.M.T. doesn't really fit in that progression considering that they aren't really related to Mortar Headds or Joker technology at all (unless of course, they took the technology found in the K.O.G. and used it for M.M.T's as well)
And there's also the Cybernetic Weapons Systems that Lachesis encounters in another dimension that are more powerful than Mortar Headds (the Manticore and Kfil)

So on their own, Mortar Headds can't match a Machine Messiah, but with the proper Headdliner/Fatima pairing, their power can match (or exceed?) that of an A.D. era MM. Thats interesting. However, The AUGE should be more powerful than just about everything except The Empress and anything with a LED engine, considering its a MM with a Fatima cockpit installed! (and of course, The Empress has the engine of a Yen Xing MM built in, so it should be able to match The AUGE)

The mind boggles!
LED Mirage can take down anything; it's an absolute. No god, MH, MS, android, knight or diver can take them down; until 7777, their win-loss record is perfect. Only ODK can defeat it (in theory), and that's because of Clothos. However, it fought to a standstill with KOG AT, so a tossup will basically never happen. For LED, it is restrained at all times; the knight and Fatima is just another restraint and means to focus its destructive capability; otherwise, it will raze everything. On its own, the LEDs would have razed the float temple except for the areas with the AKD logo on it (progammed into it) if not for the restraints built into it.
Of course. Amaterasu's Anti-god weapons. Although, on the Power Balance Chart, Dragons rank higher than the LED. And don't the AKD lose horribly against the SATAN at Stant? Unless they go in there without LED's....which would be really stupid, since normal MH's don't come close to matching with the demons...
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Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Sun May 27, 2007 4:20 am

Xenoex wrote:@Nu Soard Graphite:

Yes, it specifically says in the manga that they had buster launchers aimed at the dragons and were prepared to fire.
Gotcha.
Also, the demons only appeared twice right? Once in the flashback to a very old time when the princess preyed to the Water Dragon god to help get rid of the Demons. And once again when they were breaking free of the spell while caged in the Float Temple.
Yes, those are the two appearances seen in the Manga. In other supplemental material, they talk about quite a few more appearances by The SATAN. http://www.gearsonline.net/fss/other/kaienken/

In the above article about the Kaienken, there are several battles with the SATAN mentioned...many happening during the A.D. era, and others taking place within "Absolute Time" (no clue) and the final battle which takes place within the Taika universe.
I wish they elaborated on that, why were they caged in the Float Temple? When and how did it happen? And what was that massive 4 eyed thing that sealed them back (or did the Dragon seal the Demons back)? It'd be so cool to see the Demons fighting against Mortar headds.
They weren't "Caged" in Float Temple. The Demons Tower (???) merely held the seals which kept the demons at bay and unable to attack any time they wanted to. I'm assuming this is Amaterasu's power that holds them back, and when he was "killed" on Both, the seals were broken and the demons (multiple types) were able to come through. It was indeed a Dragon that drove away the Demons and restored the seals. Suire the Dragon-god was there as well. The Demons also attempted to attack Lachesis but were stopped by Kallen and U.R.I.
It is my theory that the Demons attempted to thwart the birth of Kallen by attacking her mother while she was in a vulnerable state before she finally evolves into a Goddess of Destiny when she would be much more difficult to defeat. I wonder exactly what it is that protects Lachesis from the Demons when she's seperated from Amaterasu....probably the K.O.G.


LED Mirage sounds totally hardcore. I've only finished up to issue 11, and I must say the LED M hasnt appeared that many times, and hasn't done as much as what its true capabilities predict. I hope it'll do more in issues 12 and onwards. At least, I wanna see them in action with Boomerang and Napalm pack.
Officially, the LED Mirages don't make a whole lot of battlefield appearances, but after the Madotaisen, the next major engagment should be AKD vs Addler, so the LED should make an appearance there. And of course, the war against Stant will show us LED vs SATAN (thats what I'm waiting for!) At the rate he's going, Nagano should get to that chapter sometime in 2030 or so
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Post by Professor Desty Nova » Sun May 27, 2007 8:10 am

Nu Soard Graphite wrote: At the rate he's going, Nagano should get to that chapter sometime in 2030 or so
So to put everything in chapters himself, I guess Nagano will need to do something like Chrome Ballanche did :wink:
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Xenoex

Post by Xenoex » Sun May 27, 2007 9:34 am

LED vs Satan or anything beyond humans = AWESOME.

I love the man vs super-beings thing (demons, satan, gods, etc)!

Cant wait for those showdowns.

So which god did Amaterasu intend to fight with LED Mirage? A god is a being from another dimension right? Such as the Water dragon god that sent the Dragons to human dimension. Were the beings that appeared at the beginning of issue 11 all gods?

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Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Sun May 27, 2007 4:31 pm

Xenoex wrote:LED vs Satan or anything beyond humans = AWESOME.

I love the man vs super-beings thing (demons, satan, gods, etc)!

Cant wait for those showdowns.
Well, considering that many of our heroes are also "super-beings", its not completely one-sided. Of course, all of our heroes except Amaterasu, Lachesis, Rognar etc are mortal, they're just super-human.

Did you check out the Kaienken article and the Power Balance chart?
So which god did Amaterasu intend to fight with LED Mirage? A god is a being from another dimension right? Such as the Water dragon god that sent the Dragons to human dimension. Were the beings that appeared at the beginning of issue 11 all gods?
We're not sure exactly who Amaterasu intended to battle with the LED's. Some of us theorize that he created the LED's to fight the SATAN and that Amaterasu embarks on his subjugation of the galaxy in order to unite all the nations in preperation for the retun of the demons to the galaxy (but he fails to do so in time). There was recently an enemy god revealed...Moikyudo(sp?) possibly the leader of the SATAN, but he is supposed to be Kallens ultimate opponent...not sure if Amaterasu tangles with him.

At the beginning of Book 11 (Japanese) that scene is indeed taking place in Heaven, and Amaterasu Oomikami is there along with Maximum, Silvis Venus (I think...not Silvis Mirror?) among others. Amaterasu Oomikami is of course, the penultimate diety of Joker. Silvis and Maximum are both enlightened humans who have ascended to divinity (much like Amaterasu Mikoto).

Hopefully I got that right. If not, someone should be here shortly to correct me if I'm wrong :)
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Post by Euhsung » Sun May 27, 2007 11:35 pm

骑士所驾驶的战斗兵器[MESS]也是在这个时代开发的,MESS后来成为了机神净皇,随后进化成MH。骑士的力量和魔导力随着扩散,使其能力逐渐退化,相对的MH的技术却正常地进化,这一点相当令人惊异。不过当然这也是因为骑士的力量退化,才使得战斗兵器必须加强进化所导致的结果。   

Translation: The weapons that Knights pilot - MMess - were also developed in this time period. Mess will later become Messiah, and will eventually evolve into MH. As Divers and Knights spread throughout the galaxy, their powers will also be diluted; conversely, MH development will evolve normally, a point which startles many. Of course, this is a consequence of the weakened knights; their weapons must be made stronger to compensate.

Taken from Chinese Knight Flags.

In other databooks, there is mention of the first fatimas being built. The control scheme for MMsshs is direct nervous system control, which is an inferior control scheme for all but the strongest chivalries. The fatima provides a second brain designed specially as a control inferface, which is far superior.

I'm not sure if the grand headd is valid any more: in the same essay, it's mentioned that Colus III established the Trio; the revised settings states that it's Colus XIX. I'm leaning for against, since the current timeline states that MH were developed around 980, 450 years after the Grand Headd. Of course, I don't have the revised editions, so I'm perfectly willing to admit I'm wrong.

Note: MMess stands for Machine Messenger; not contraction of messiah.
Can't remember source, but I'm sure I'm right, being young and arrogant.

In absolute time, the Kaienken are commanded by the gods to go to the times they are needed. Otherwise, they appear of their own volition. I theorize this from the Mikoto entry on the Kaienken page (sent by Hyperon in MS), vs the text on the heading (the Kaienken do as they please, with any inconsistencies erased by the gods).

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