Mecha with dual handguns... a rarity.

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Mecha with dual handguns... a rarity.

Post by Grebo Guru » Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:51 am

So I was watching Power Rangers SPD this morning. Not great, but not super-scuky either. Anyway, in it the rangers do a fair amount of John Woo-style gunplay. You know, pistols in both hands, firing them at once while leaping sideways through the air, all that. And that got me thinking...

Paired-pistol fighting is a visually dynamic gimmick, and although its used a lot in video games (Devil May Cry, Gungrave, etc) very few anime feature mecha which do it. That seems a little odd... I wonder why its not done more? (Im not talking about from a "realistic rationale" POV, Im talking about from an anime production and mecha design POV.) I have a theory or two, but I'd love to hear others' ideas.

Meanwhile, here are some mecha I can think of which DO use the paired pistols gimmick:

Gundam Maxter (G-Gundaml; didn't do it often)
Bismarck (a.k.a. "Ramrod" from Saber Rider & The Star Sherriffs)
Texas Mack (from the Getter Robo franchise)
Hyper V-Stealth Robo (from MachineRobo Rescue)
Jango (from Bakuretsu Tenshi)
Dynamo Joe (from the old First Comics publication of the same name... and probably my most obscure reference to date!)

Anyway, any o' youse guys have any thoughts on the subject?

Eternal

Post by Eternal » Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:03 am

From a "realistic rationale" POV it doesn't require a large, powerful mech to carry a small handgun. That sometimes looked strange in gundam. Based on weapons loadout the GM should be about two times smaller. Many mecha designs have built-in guns in both of their arms, does that count?

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Post by Kuruni » Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:41 pm

Thinking...

RGC-034 Rasangreef (In SRW A, it do a "John Woo" with two pistol-shape missile launcher. It use only one in OG2 though.)

Excellence Cosmo Diver frame. (SRW R)

R-1 (It use both G-Revolver when perform "Psychic Shoot" MAP attack in SRW Alpha)

CAT1-X1/3 Hyperion Gundam Unit 1 (It use two beam machinegun when attack Moon)
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Post by Grebo Guru » Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:26 pm

Woof woof!
Eternal wrote:From a "realistic rationale" POV it doesn't require a large, powerful mech to carry a small handgun.
(grinds teeth) Didn't I say, just above, that "Im NOT talking about from a 'realistic rationale' POV"...?
Eternal wrote:That sometimes looked strange in gundam. Based on weapons loadout the GM should be about two times smaller.
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. Why should the GM be smaller?
Eternal wrote:Many mecha designs have built-in guns in both of their arms, does that count?
Naw. That ain't nowhere close to John Woo-style paired-pistol action...

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Post by Grebo Guru » Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:29 pm

Kuruni, Kuruni... you are THE MAN when it comes to SRW!
Kuruni wrote:RGC-034 Rasangreef (In SRW A, it do a "John Woo" with two pistol-shape missile launcher. It use only one in OG2 though.)

Excellence Cosmo Diver frame. (SRW R)
Can't remember which ones these are. My SRW books are in a box right now... (sob)
Kuruni wrote:R-1 (It use both G-Revolver when perform "Psychic Shoot" MAP attack in SRW Alpha)
(slaps palm into face) D'oh!! I knew this one too...
Kuruni wrote:CAT1-X1/3 Hyperion Gundam Unit 1 (It use two beam machinegun when attack Moon)
Hmmm. Yeah, I guess that counts. That isn't its standard armament configuration, but it qualifies.

Still, isn't it interesting that it's so rare?

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Post by Newton » Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:49 pm

My first thought is that two-gun style would be a bitch to draw.

From a deadline standpoint, one could get away with doing only one shot of the mech "rock-n-rollin'", but it wouldn't be as dynamic as the scene being fully animated.

That said, I wish more folks would do it, 'specially now that CGI renders the multiple-drawing aspect moot (pardon the pun...).

-Newt

Eternal

Post by Eternal » Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:18 pm

Grebo Guru wrote:(grinds teeth) Didn't I say, just above, that "Im NOT talking about from a 'realistic rationale' POV"...?
I messed up. Sorry!! :oops:

I'm surprised Kuruni didn't mention the Aussenzeiter (spelling?), from SRWOG2. It has some fancy action with it's two weapons, although they seem larger than handguns... More like rifles.

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Post by Grebo Guru » Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:40 pm

Yeah, I know what you mean... but Im not counting dual rifles or bazookas or shotguns or cannons or whatever. Those don't fill the same niche as John Woo-style paired-pistol action, and besides, there's tons of examples of dual rifles. (Wing Gundam Zero anyone?)

Altron

Post by Altron » Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:35 am

Probably because if you have dual handguns, you limit yourself in combat.

Sure, you get twice the amout of shots off, but who said those shots would be accurate? Also, you can't block with a shield-- that left hand is holding a blaster. You can't engage close range, you don't have an arm for a beam-weapon.

It only looks cool. In reality, it sucks. I'd much rather have a Gundam with a beam-rifle and a beam saber than a Gundam with two beam rifles. What if I come in to engage you at close range? You're toasted then.

Now that I think about it, it really doesn't look cool. >_> oh well.

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Post by Poseidal » Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:45 am

In OG2, Elzam's Super Robot uses twin pistols, and it looks quite cool there.

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Post by Grebo Guru » Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:57 am

Woof woof!
Altron wrote:Probably because if you have dual handguns, you limit yourself in combat.

Sure, you get twice the amout of shots off, but who said those shots would be accurate? Also, you can't block with a shield-- that left hand is holding a blaster. You can't engage close range, you don't have an arm for a beam-weapon.

It only looks cool. In reality, it sucks.
Sigh... Allow me to point you, too, to what I wrote in my original posting. I said "Im not talking about from a 'realistic rationale' POV, Im talking about from an anime production and mecha design POV."

In reality, it may suck, but as you said, it looks cool. It looks very cool. Its awfully strange to me, then, that this dramatic device is not used more frequently. Or frequently at all, for that matter.
Altron wrote:Now that I think about it, it really doesn't look cool. >_> oh well.
(cough! choke!!)You didn't think it was cool in The Matrix? Or The Killer? Or in Hard Boiled? Or in Reservoir Dogs? Or in, hell, virtually every gunfighting-oriented movie of the past 10-15 years?

Huh. Well, I think its cool. A lot of moviemakers seem to think its cool. Or at least think that audiences think its cool.

Grebo

(Who is always caught off guard whenever anyone starts talking about "practicality" or "realism" when discussing GIANT ROBOTS...!)

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Post by Grebo Guru » Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:59 am

Poseidal wrote:In OG2, Elzam's Super Robot uses twin pistols, and it looks quite cool there.
Ah good, another one to add to the modest list. Thanks, Poseidal!

Man, SRW does seem to be a haven for paired pistols, doesn't it?

Altron

Post by Altron » Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:59 am

Grebo Guru wrote:Woof woof!
Sigh... Allow me to point you, too, to what I wrote in my original posting. I said "Im not talking about from a 'realistic rationale' POV, Im talking about from an anime production and mecha design POV."

In reality, it may suck, but as you said, it looks cool. It looks very cool. Its awfully strange to me, then, that this dramatic device is not used more frequently. Or frequently at all, for that matter.
Yeah, but it doesn't look all that cool. It's reserved for those cowboy/gunslinger mecha.
(cough! choke!!)You didn't think it was cool in The Matrix? Or The Killer? Or in Hard Boiled? Or in Reservoir Dogs? Or in, hell, virtually every gunfighting-oriented movie of the past 10-15 years?

Huh. Well, I think its cool. A lot of moviemakers seem to think its cool. Or at least think that audiences think its cool.

Grebo

(Who is always caught off guard whenever anyone starts talking about "practicality" or "realism" when discussing GIANT ROBOTS...!)
No, I never said that it was uncool when outside the realm of Giant Robots. I meant to say that Giant Robots look sort of awkward with them, and only look cool if they're done right.

Dual-handed gun fighting outside of mecha is downright awesome. I love it.

And it never hurts to think of realistic tactics applied to fictional technology. Isn't that how new weapons are made? For instance, the tank when on paper was probably sketched out to be something that packed a punch that foot soldiers couldn't [feasibly] carry. The use of tanks to blow through light infantry units was a tactic probably thought of before it was made. That would make the tank a piece of fictional technology, whose tactics were thought up before its creation.

But really, you're right to be a little thrown at discussing realism in Giant mecha. But hey, 'realism' is one of the aspects the Universal Century prides itself upon. It being more 'realistic' than AU.

Eternal

Post by Eternal » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:57 am

Poseidal wrote:In OG2, Elzam's Super Robot uses twin pistols, and it looks quite cool there.
That's the one I mentioned...

SteamTrooper

Post by SteamTrooper » Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:49 pm

Well I havent thought this through particularly well - but I am trying to think of a good reason why we havent seen the JW style gunplay in too many Mecha shows n films - the first thing that comes to mind is that it primarily used in the films by one lone gunman versus a multitude of foes - the shots are anywhere from deadly accurate while allowing the lone gunman to reposition, through to too totaly irrelevant as too accuracy when the lone gunam is seeking to move on and evade in order to escape or reach a primary target - so Id have to say that the main reason I can think of for its lack of use is that not too many mecha shows have a single mech in combat at close range with a multitude of foes (or mooks). It seems unlikely that any half decent bad guy would put Mooks into highly expensive and sophisticated mechanical killing machines - without a great deal of training - thus the cannon fodder aspect must surely have a litle to do with this.

Also in the films these weapons on many occasions are placed in advance (say in a plantpot), or concealed within clothing or aquired from the enemy - I guess that they are considered a reserve or emergency weapon.

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