Fanservice in anime...

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SteamTrooper

Post by SteamTrooper » Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:35 pm

I can see how someone can be attracted to action and speed and even the drama of a car chase in a 2d format - however I cant imagine too many people would use a car based anime to improve their mechanical skills and work on the engine or too teach them how to drive.

Likewise I dont imagine too many people chuck their guts when they see a disembowling in anime (ok some people maybe slightly nausiated by it) - does watching a violent anime make someone a Sadist? Does watching a dogfight induce Vertigo or motion sickness? I dont believe so, but these are physical and to some degree visual effects on the body - as is physical attraction (ruling out pheromones for a second) - so how does a naked figure aquire sexual attractiveness? Is it the roundness of the form? If so does looking at a bowl of strategically arranged fruit get people horny? and if so is this right? would these people then `pull one off` to a bowl of fruit and think nothing of it?

Besides I thought Fanservice was about the Superfluous use of gratuitous nakedness amongst the other sorts of fanservice - I believe someone in this format can be made to seem cute/sexy or even repulsive - but within the confines of the story and plot and not merely as a lump of meat? (pixels) that jiggles around.

Would anyone say that there is a market for making and watching Sports anime - rather than watching a real game of football or basketball for example? and would it have the same effect that the real thing has?

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Post by Tachyon » Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:03 pm

This thread on fanservice has certainly taken an interesting direction. It isn't often I have cause to discuss anime vs. live-action entertainment.

SteamTrooper said:
I fail to see how a 2d stylized image of a naked/semi clad person can in any way arouse or titilate anyone of rational mind.
I've spoken with a few people who've stated the same idea. I understand that there are people who can't make the connection between sexy anime characters and real-life sexy women. However, I think it's worth mentioning that none of the people who told me this were anime/manga fans. Being an anime/manga fan for some years now, I am well aware that both of those industries in Japan make large profits on pornographic entertainment. There are manga shops in Tokyo that only sell hentai/etchi manga. Those same anime and manga titles sell well in the U.S. (mainly via online stores). So the evidence is clear that large numbers of both Americans and Japanese can be "aroused or titelated" by "2D stylized images." On top of that, friends in Europe tell me Masamune Shiro's art books featuring illustrations of women in sexy outfits sell very well in French-speaking countries.

I confess that I'm not immune to the effect. When I flip through my monthly hobby magazines from Japan my eyes are drawn to some of the sexy anime women depicted therein. Some art styles don't attract my attention while others do. My wife is from India and grew up without watching animation or seeing comic books and she insists I tear out the pages showing anime girls in lingerie or topless poses (she's worried our son may get more than an eyeful flipping through the pages when he gets a little older). I realize not everyone likes having their bookshelf censored but as a family man I make some compromises. My point is, a person doesn't have to grow up seeing sexy illustrations to "make the connection."

On a side note, as a forums administrator the "anyone of rational mind" on the end could be interpreted as flame bait. I'm sure SteamTrooper didn't mean it that way but we can all benefit from an occasional reminder.

SteamTrooper also said:
Would anyone say that there is a market for making and watching Sports anime - rather than watching a real game of football or basketball for example?
My answer is "yes." There certainly is a market for sports anime and manga. Looking as far back as the 60's there have been many sports manga titles. I lived in Japan for a year in 1993/94 and Captain Tsubasa was a very popular anime TV show about a grade school/junior high soccer team. Many people who like sports like it any way they can get it. They like to play basketball with friends, they like to watch games on TV and they like to read manga about other people playing basketball. Heck, Slam Dunk was the top selling manga of them all for a while in the 90's and it was about high school basketball.
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Post by Rubel Colus » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:32 pm

haha, I'm a fan of both those sports anime you mentioned. Watched Captain Tsubasa when I was very little, played its video game, and even bought some VCDs a few yrs ago just to rewatch the series. Slam Dunk was super popular when it was aired on TV on the weekends here in Singapore (we didnt get many anime shows that time), my friend who loves playing basketball is a crazy fan of slam dunk, even tho he dont watch other anime... :roll:

More recently the Initial D and Prince of Tennis are some of the other very popular sports anime. I dont watch the latter but I like Initial D! 8)

There isnt much anime or manga in UK huh?


By your own reasoning, why would watching real people act in a show induce any thoughts or reactions? They are still "pictures" on a TV screen isnt it?

Why would watching real live-action videos "improve a person's mechanical skills and work on the engine or let a person learn how to drive"? U mean by watching F1 drivers, i can react and drive as fast as them? Do u also mean I cant learn anything from anime? If u've watched slam dunk, u'll find that many parts of the anime/manga actually explains about the rules of the game.
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Post by Altron » Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:45 pm

Rubel Colus wrote:By your own reasoning, why would watching real people act in a show induce any thoughts or reactions? They are still "pictures" on a TV screen isnt it?
Erm... Lemme get out my pen and paper. ^.^

The only reason we [humans] watch TV because the things that appear on it resemble things from our world, in the case of an animation. The things actually recorded are just people on a screen -- a window to the world if you will, and to our minds, we're just watching this stuff through a window. It's happening or already happened on the other side of the window, so we're bound to have a reaction. A TV is equal to a window in this instance, mainly because it's a small barrier -- a technicallity if you will, separating us from the 'real' action. Yes, human minds are illusioned this way.

Even you, Rubel. I'm sure you don't cut off the TV as soon as it comes on saying "Why would anyone watch it? They're only pictures! Pictures and light... humbug." Because your mind subconsciously makes the connection between the image and the real thing. So to you, at the moment, it's real. Of course, you might argue that in a show like Gundam we aren't afraid of Gunshots towards the screen or whatnot. That's because our mind also makes a subconscious note that it's all fake , this connection is more apparant in an anime. But in a scary movie... they're scary because we subconsciously think it's real because of the real people, read sounds, real action.
Why would watching real live-action videos "improve a person's mechanical skills and work on the engine or let a person learn how to drive"?
Let's see... you might learn how to improve one's mechanical skills because much of mechanics is learning where things go, so one might be able to pick up on such techniques by observation. However, there is a certain amount of action that is required to master or perfect something, which brings me to my next point.
U mean by watching F1 drivers, i can react and drive as fast as them?
Well, by just watching an F1 car, you wouldn't learn much, except how fast it could go, what it looked like, and the like. If you could see what the driver was doing, you'd learn more. Like, where your feet go, how inertia reacts upon the driver's body in the turns, what each gauge means, and so on. But like I said above, you would need to practice the skill in order to be good at it, or even mediocre. It's called muscle memory.
Do u also mean I cant learn anything from anime? If u've watched slam dunk, u'll find that many parts of the anime/manga actually explains about the rules of the game.
You can learn the rules. You can't be good at it though. A person would need to go and practice things.

Overally, Rubel, I think you misinterpreted Steam Trooper's point. He said
I cant imagine too many people would use a car based anime to improve their mechanical skills and work on the engine or too teach them how to drive.
Not that the anime doesn't teach anyone. Anyway, onward!
How does a naked figure aquire sexual attractiveness? Is it the roundness of the form? If so does looking at a bowl of strategically arranged fruit get people horny? and if so is this right? would these people then `pull one off` to a bowl of fruit and think nothing of it?
I believe that many find hentai and the like sexually attractive beacuse it reminds them of the real thing, and appeals to primal instinct (you know what that be). Curves are one thing on a human. Not a bowl. Bowls remind us of... bowls. A half-naked anime girl, slender and shapely remind us how incredibly horny we are, and of women. I really can't believe you compared people 'pulling one off' to a bowl just because of its curves. -_-;;

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Post by Grebo Guru » Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:42 am

I may be confused, Altron, but I think you're misinterpreting what Rubel Colus is saying. As far as I can tell, Rubel Colus is questioning SteamTrooper's line of reasoning -- Hes not making crazy assertions, so much as saying that SteamTrooper's assertion is tantamount to making such crazy assertions.

Then again, I may be misreading things here. Anything can happen in this wacky world.

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Post by Rubel Colus » Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:10 am

Grebo Guru wrote:I may be confused, Altron, but I think you're misinterpreting what Rubel Colus is saying. As far as I can tell, Rubel Colus is questioning SteamTrooper's line of reasoning -- Hes not making crazy assertions, so much as saying that SteamTrooper's assertion is tantamount to making such crazy assertions.
yeah, thats what i was trying to say...

regarding steamtrooper's point
I cant imagine too many people would use a car based anime to improve their mechanical skills and work on the engine or too teach them how to drive.
Yes, he's right. But is he trying to say people could use a car-based 'live-action' movie to improve their skills or learn how to drive? It seems like he's implying that it does... (of coz i cant agree on this).

For example, whats the difference between a person watching NBA and Slam Dunk?

Can we become skillful in playing basketball by watching either of those? I hardly think so. But then is the anime totally worthless here, that we cant learn anything from it? Of coz not, we learn about the game from both live-action and animated, dont mean that we can be as skillful but we sure can get some info about the game.

So there really isnt much difference between 'live-action' and animated, its juz how people relate to them.
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SteamTrooper

Post by SteamTrooper » Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:52 pm

Quote: Tachyon
I understand that there are people who can't make the connection between sexy anime characters and real-life sexy women.

Quote: Tachyon
Would anyone say that there is a market for making and watching Sports
anime - rather than watching a real game of football or basketball for example?

My answer is "yes." There certainly is a market for sports anime and manga. Looking as far back as the 60's there have been many sports manga titles. I lived in Japan for a year in 1993/94 and Captain Tsubasa was a very popular anime TV show about a grade school/junior high soccer team.

Many people who like sports like it any way they can get it. They like to
play basketball with friends, they like to watch games on TV and they like to read manga about other people playing basketball. Heck, Slam Dunk
was the top selling manga of them all for a while in the 90's and it was about high school basketball.
Umm!.. I have to say I think you are confusing sports related anime with
sports anime - what I was refering to was the idea of a team and league
playing weekly games without any off the pitch action or story and no
characterization - I think youll agree that would be a different animal altogether - Of course I can see how some people would watch a story
based around a team or players but I dont think there would be too much
following for a straight forward match - but I suppose this would be because the element of chance had been removed - whereas if a series of
AI`s controlled the outcome I imagine there could well be a following -
although I would liken this to more of an Idoru.
Quote: Rubel
There isnt much anime or manga in UK huh?

I think maybe I didnt explain myself very well - as per above I meant
entirely Sports Anime - not anime based around a sport - sorry about the
ambiguity. But to answer the question - I have absolutely no idea as I
have no interest in sports anime and even less in watching any kind of
sport on the TV - I see sport as something to patricipate in and cant
realy get excited about watching it on the box. I imagine most of the
sports anime is available if you look hard enuf over here - I dont think
there is any actually on cable at the moment but I could be wrong.

Quote: Rubel
By your own reasoning, why would watching real people act in a show
induce any thoughts or reactions? They are still "pictures" on a TV screen isnt it?


OK - Id have to agree to a certain degree - like I said above I dont watch Sports although I can see how some people would enjoy it - but I think that is as a result of our ever growing armchair culture - Which I have to say cant be a good thing.

To further discuss this point I would say `imagination` and `association`
are the key words - and maybe even a little `empathy` - a well written
character and scene can make me feel for them - but a badly written one
is hell to watch and in no way sparks the imagination - which leads me to
say that I think when Tachyon was talking of `the Connection` regarding
naked/semi clad etc... I think most people appreciate the depicted image
as a nice picture or piece of art firstly and not as a fine looking women. That is to say as a representation of a fine looking women - I doubt too many newborn babies would be caught trying to suckle on the open pages of a nude manga title - and I think that is a salient point as you mentioned the following..
Quote:Tachyon
My point is, a person doesn't have to grow up seeing sexy illustrations to "make the connection."


Yes but there is a difference surely between knowing something is
supposed to be `Sexy` and finding something `sexy` no?
Quote:Rubel
Why would watching real live-action videos "improve a person's mechanical skills and work on the engine or let a person learn how to drive"?
I didnt for one second mean that watching Live-Action would have this
effect - I just meant that Anime wouldnt. I also never said or meant that you couldnt learn from anime - I think many things can be learnt especially on a moral level - which is partly why I detest fanservice and
Hentai so much - but its a free world still (in some parts) so I suppose
it should be available.

P.S - Your probably right about the`Flame Baiting` sorry about that.
Quote:Altron
I believe that many find hentai and the like sexually attractive because it reminds them of the real thing, and appeals to primal instinct (you know what that be). Curves are one thing on a human. Not a bowl. Bowls remind us of... bowls. A half-naked anime girl, slender and shapely
remind us how incredibly horny we are, and of women. I really can't
believe you compared people 'pulling one off' to a bowl just because of
its curves. -_-;;
I didnt mean the bowl - but the fruit inside the bowl - its a fact that certain curves be they a horses buttocks or the leg of a chair or even a bowl of fruit - excite us and touch upon this `Primal Instinct` you talk about - they are visual markers by which we identify things and make
relationships between things. By the way thanks for answering most of
the quotes for me Altron - much appreicated.
Quote:Rubel
Yes, he's right. But is he trying to say people could use a car-based
'live-action' movie to improve their skills or learn how to drive? It seems like he's implying that it does... (of coz i cant agree on this).
No I didnt mean that at all - but I can see how you might have come to
that conclusion - sorry again.
Quote:Rubel
For example, whats the difference between a person watching NBA and Slam Dunk?
Now this is an easy one - in one we have real people complete with flaws
who have trained hard for many years and are excelling at their chosen
sport - inspiring us and calling out to the best in all of us and in the other we have animated characters that on their own have no soul or character - however if the writer and artist and the voice actors get it together then we have an enthralling show `depicting` the same thing as the NBA game - but note: without the NBA`s existance and your knowledge of it Slam Dunk has very little meaning.

ShinDVDz

Post by ShinDVDz » Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:55 pm

Yes, this thread has gone in a rather interesting direction, I guess I'll go along wiht it. Should I modify the title?
Anyways, if you ask me, I think it's perfectly fine to take Hentai, fanservice, and other forms of animated things over porn. However, it is NOT fine to take that over a real relationship, because it's not natural.

But my reason that it is okay: people watch porn and hentai to jack off. There is practically no other reason to watch those things. I mean, really, some people masturbate to their own fantasies as well. So, is THAT wrong? I mean, what you imagine is not the always the closest thing to reality... (as with anything else you fantasize about...)

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Post by Grebo Guru » Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:10 pm

(applauds)
ShinDVDz wrote:Yes, this thread has gone in a rather interesting direction, I guess I'll go along wiht it. Should I modify the title?
Anyways, if you ask me, I think it's perfectly fine to take Hentai, fanservice, and other forms of animated things over porn. However, it is NOT fine to take that over a real relationship, because it's not natural.

But my reason that it is okay: people watch porn and hentai to jack off. There is practically no other reason to watch those things. I mean, really, some people masturbate to their own fantasies as well. So, is THAT wrong? I mean, what you imagine is not the always the closest thing to reality... (as with anything else you fantasize about...)

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Post by FSS is totally emo » Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:24 pm

i consider myself a fan of anime and manga and I never get aroused by hentai stuff, of course, i never really look at any sort of porn to begin with (although 70's porn is HI-LARIOUS!). but i think that in japan, the anime visual style is so deeply ingrained in their popular culture, that they don't see hentai as "anime porn" but rahter just "porn"- at least thats myguess

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Post by Nu Soard Graphite » Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:22 pm

For the ultimate example of the term Fanservice watch the anime: AIKA.
Shinei!

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