Mechas 20 years

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SteamTrooper

Post by SteamTrooper » Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:09 am

"1960s: Tetsujin 28
1970s: "Shogun Warriors" (Mazinger Z, Raideen, Getter Robo, etc)
1980s: Real Robots (Super Dimensional style & Mobile Suit style)
1990s: Evangelion-influenced baroque designs & lots of retro
2000s: CG-rendered super-intricate forms

"Firstly as far as I am aware Tetsujin is actually a giant robot/not a mecha secondly Mazinger couldnt be more Knight like - face grill gauntlets general unessasry bulkyness and thirdly Getter Robo sucked first time and still sucks now on the design side of things. I could go on but I think you are aware of my opinions on Evanzilla... (still cant bring myself to finish that word)

The human form is so primally distinct that there is plenty of room for change.

Consider: a four-armed humanoid shape is still recognizable as being based on the shape of man. Heck, eve the Gerwalks and M-Rovers from Orguss (jets with legs and jets with arms, respectively) still fall solidly into the man-based mecha category. Animal-based mecha, like Zoids and many Sentai machines, also fit the category. In other words, any machine which has limbs fits the bill, and that is a categorization with a LOT of wiggle room."



Bearing in mind this is a discussion and not a competition - All I have to say to you sir is what is your point?

I Hear lots of talk but fail to see a valid point? - I also fail to see how ZZ and Evangelion artists r cutting edge/innovative? - I personaly feel that Evangelion owes more to Godzilla and the man in an unconvincing suit look than to any kind of technology or style. ( I love Godzilla by the way-and loath Evan...blah blah blah)

Are you just hear to show your `apparent` knowledge off or maybe to feel superior or do you genuinely want to share? - I ask you to ask yourself that question.

"Consider: a four-armed humanoid shape is still recognizable as being based on the shape of man. Heck, eve the Gerwalks and M-Rovers from Orguss (jets with legs and jets with arms, respectively) still fall solidly into the man-based mecha category. Animal-based mecha, like Zoids and many Sentai machines, also fit the category. In other words, any machine which has limbs fits the bill, and that is a categorization with a LOT of wiggle room" - erm!!?!?! - so a zoid that has never been based on the human form is somehow humanoid?? - are you on some kind of new brain medicine that hasnt hit the UK yet? - I dont think a comment is needed regarding this nonsense. (fit this bill? - man glad I dont get your bills - jeez! tut!)

now discuss...

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Grebo Guru
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Post by Grebo Guru » Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:10 pm

SteamTrooper wrote:Firstly as far as I am aware Tetsujin is actually a giant robot/not a mecha
So, in your opinion, a giant Japanese robot which is remote-operated by voice control does not count as "mecha"? Hm. Well, to each his own.
SteamTrooper wrote:secondly Mazinger couldnt be more Knight like - face grill gauntlets general unessasry bulkyness
Id hardly call the bulkiness of Mazinger -- or any giant robot -- unnecessary. Added bulk increases the impression of power and strength, and enhances a mech's presence. And for me, the face grill always reminded me of a furnace or a locomotive's cowcatcher. I mean, if we were going for a Knight look, wouldn't the grill be in the eye area? (As in the case with the Brocken from Patlabor, or the Escaflowne...)
SteamTrooper wrote:and thirdly Getter Robo sucked first time and still sucks now on the design side of things.
1. This is purely your opinion, not a fact. It therefore supports no argument at all.
2. Getter Robo was the first combiner mech ever. Its design was super-influential and revolutionary, whether or not you like it from an aesthetic POV.
3. Have you watched Shin Getter Robo? I absolutely LOVED the Getter 1 in that show! The cape, the pot-belly, the funky head... Just so's ya know, in my opinion the Getters are really really fun aesthetic works.
SteamTrooper wrote:I could go on but I think you are aware of my opinions on Evanzilla... (still cant bring myself to finish that word)
Whether you liked it or not, Evangelion had a massive impact on anime (both robot-oriented and non-) and was tremendously influential. Things definitely changed in the giant robot world thanks to that show.
SteamTrooper wrote:Bearing in mind this is a discussion and not a competition - All I have to say to you sir is what is your point?
Im glad you said that. I hope I dont sound hostile or anything. Im just trying to get to the bottom of your point...

WARNING: A discussion of the discussion follows.

See, first you said that you thought the future of humanoid mecha was that they'd be humanoid, and I thought that was kindof a redundant assertion. So I asked you about that.

You explained by saying that you believe mecha "hold to an ancient design - that of the armoured knight." I disagree with that, and I said why. You also said that you don't think stylistic trends influence mecha design, and I disagree with that, too.

(Consider: As I wrote in Animerica's "History of Mecha" serialized article, the 1980s were a time when people were obsessed with technology. Not coincidentally, that is the decade when "Real Robots" exploded.)

Your biggest whammy was when you said that you think mecha haven't changed much, won't change much, and that there's isnt much room for change. This is disagree with quite strongly, and again I explained why (including giving examples in a decade-by-decade format).
SteamTrooper wrote:I Hear lots of talk but fail to see a valid point?
Well, the subject of this topic is "What do people think mecha will be like 20 years from now?" So, this whole thread is about discussing the future of mecha. I said what I think. You said what you thought. I feel that your evaluation of the future of mecha is inaccurate, and discussing why helps the thread continue. I don't see how anyone could think I'm not making any point here. (And before you suggest that I might only be here to criticise you, I'd like to point out that I offered my own thoughts on the future of mecha as well, in a previous post.)
SteamTrooper wrote:I also fail to see how ZZ and Evangelion artists r cutting edge/innovative?
Ahem. First of all, I never mentioned any ZZ mecha designers. (Although I do think that there were several VERY talented, innovative designers working on the series.) Second, I was referring to the artists themselves, not necessarily the works I cited them for (I only offered those titles as a way to quickly reference who I was talking about).

Now, as for WHY Kenki Fujioka, Kazumi Fujita, Yoji Shinkawa, and Ikuto Yamashita might qualify as cutting edge and/or innovative... I'd say its because I consider them the strongest examples of designers whose mecha are elaborate, complex, and baroque. Which, as you may remember, was where I said I think (note: THINK) the future of mecha design lies.
SteamTrooper wrote:I personaly feel that Evangelion owes more to Godzilla and the man in an unconvincing suit look than to any kind of technology or style.
Evangelion reassembled a LOT of classic elements from a LOT of classic sources. I always thought it owed more to Ultraman than Godzilla, but I know what you mean. Really, Eva was a brand-new combination of a lot of old elements. But then, many people beleive that that's the only formula possible for anything. What makes Eva distinct was how creatively and skillfully those familiar elements where blended.

But we're not here to talk about whether or not we liked Evangelion. I just cited Ikuto Yamashita (who happened to work on Eva) as one of those innovative designers. And believe me, his most innovative work was NOT done on Eva. If you look at Dark Whisper and some of his sketchworks, you'll see much more radical designs.
SteamTrooper wrote:( I love Godzilla by the way-and loath Evan...blah blah blah)
I dig Godzilla too. I absolutely adored "Godzilla X Mechagodzilla," which I was lucky enough to see in a movie theater in Tokyo on opening weeked. It was me, my 2 friends, and about a zillion little children in that theater...!
SteamTrooper wrote:Are you just hear to show your `apparent` knowledge off or maybe to feel superior or do you genuinely want to share? - I ask you to ask yourself that question.
Im not looking to feel superior to anyone. I think the number of posts Ive put on this site makes it pretty clear Im thrilled to be able to talk about my favorite subject -- mecha -- with everyone here. (And as for my 'apparent' knowledge -- please, do NOT start comparing anime knowledge "dick size" with me. Im fully confident in my knowledge, and you seem to know what you're talking about as well. Really, if you must challenge me like that, let's talk about it in a PM. I dont want to publicly brag.)

Now, on the subject of my assertion that "any machine which has limbs fits the bill, and that is a categorization with a LOT of wiggle room", you said:
SteamTrooper wrote:erm!!?!?! - so a zoid that has never been based on the human form is somehow humanoid??
I didn't say it was humanoid. I said it qualifies as "mecha." YOU are the who said that mecha have to be humanoid. Or did you? It seemed like you were... But if you don't think that's true, you're proving my point.

Anyway, I don't think mecha have to be humanoid (as I think I made clear). Think about the Neue-Ziel from Gundam 0083, or the BaCUE from Gundam SEED, or the SNN Valkyrie from Macross II, or the Vunder Schatze from FSS, or the HAL-X10 from Patlabor, or the Lista from L-Gaim... They, and many other anime machines, are limbed, but not humanoid, and I doubt anyone would think they're "not mecha".
SteamTrooper wrote:are you on some kind of new brain medicine that hasnt hit the UK yet?
Hmm. That's pretty hostile, SteamTrooper. Are you just here to show off your temper, or maybe to feel superior, or do you genuinely want to share? I ask you to ask yourself that question.
SteamTrooper wrote:I dont think a comment is needed regarding this nonsense.
I think comments are warranted. Rudeness, however, is another matter...
SteamTrooper wrote:(fit this bill? - man glad I dont get your bills - jeez! tut!)
That's for sure, man. Credit cards can be murder...

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Post by Zoxesyr » Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:44 am

O.k. back to the subject for a moment.

I agree that cgi will change a lot of things in the mecha world. However we will first see, and are seeing now, a division on CGI based on budget.

My primary thoughts here are two currently existing shows that use CGI.
1 - Dragon Booster, which isn't mecha, per-se, but does show the capabilities of low-end CGI.
2 - Ghost in the Shell-SAC, and Gundam Seed, both of which show relatively higher end CGI modeling for TV and more sophisticated effects.

(I don't have a good movie example to add to this yet)

We will be seeing more stylization, and more artistic flair in CGI mechs, than before, now that the level of knowlegde is generally greater. However that also sets the bar for excellence higher, so we will see a lot more mediocre stuff along with the few outstanding pieces. By flair, I don't necessarily mean more complex stuff, just more obviously stylized work.

As a friend of my told me "CGI is a lot simpler than drawing. Once you have the model, you can ask the computer to draw it in almost any position or angle. In regular sketching, if you want a different pose or angle, you have to draw it over."

SteamTrooper

Post by SteamTrooper » Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:03 pm

GG - I am not interested in any kind of comparrisons or flame wars - I just feel that you repeatedly misquote and misrepresent other peoples opinions in order to make points that they themselves have either gone to lenghts to point out or simply to imply they had a different meaning - I feel this to be a rather unfair thing to do.
Grebo Guru wrote: So, in your opinion, a giant Japanese robot which is remote-operated by voice control does not count as "mecha"? Hm. Well, to each his own.
Thats right - I see it has a voice controlled robot with semi-self autonomy _ I feel that mecha should whenever possible have pilots present - if the voice controller was within then maybe Id give you this one.
Grebo Guru wrote: Id hardly call the bulkiness of Mazinger -- or any giant robot --unnecessary. Added bulk increases the impression of power and strength, and enhances a mech's presence. And for me, the face grill always reminded me of a furnace or a locomotive's cowcatcher. I mean, if we were going for a Knight look, wouldn't the grill be in the eye area? (As in the case with the Brocken from Patlabor, or the Escaflowne...).
I wasnt realy saying it didnt serve some purpose - hey I was always a sucker for a looker - The grill I see as a motif - it is their to imply - it doesnt have to be exactly the same location or even have a function. I believe you come from an artistic background and Imagine that you are aware of this.
Grebo Guru wrote: 1. This is purely your opinion, not a fact. It therefore supports no argument at all.
My opinion is as valid as the next mans - and my intentions on this forum have never been to argue. I certainly have no recollection of stating this as fact merely opinion!?
Grebo Guru wrote: Whether you liked it or not, Evangelion had a massive impact on anime (both robot-oriented and non-) and was tremendously influential. Things definitely changed in the giant robot world thanks to that show.
Change and influence are not always for the better - so your "Thanks" to this show in (yes its my opinion again) this matter I see as being misplaced - I realy dont see how what I precieve to be a step backwards in design and story have helped an already much maligned genre.

Seriously could you point me to some of these thnigs that have changed due to that show?
Grebo Guru wrote:WARNING: A discussion of the discussion follows.

See, first you said that you thought the future of humanoid mecha was that they'd be humanoid, and I thought that was kindof a redundant assertion. So I asked you about that.
Simply untrue - I was merely if you read the posting pointing out for the sake of enlivening the conversation some basic points - it was not meant to be a full stop or authoritative statement - I was hoping the topic would change pace from merely quoting and refering to current and past favourite artists to a more general discussion on design and the future of
Mecha.
Grebo Guru wrote:You explained by saying that you believe mecha "hold to an ancient design - that of the armoured knight." I disagree with that, and I said why. You also said that you don't think stylistic trends influence mecha design, and I disagree with that, too.

(Consider: As I wrote in Animerica's "History of Mecha" serialized article, the 1980s were a time when people were obsessed with technology. Not coincidentally, that is the decade when "Real Robots" exploded.)
You see this is where you truly begin to misquote and corrupt what I was actually saying - I think you should perhaps go back and calmly take another look - It may be that my point is not put over well but your interpretation was never my intended outcome.

I said [quote="SteamTrooper] Art fashions and stylistic trends as well as cultural beliefs and myths have given us a myriad of different looks and interpretations but aside from a handfull of off the wall designers I dont believe the basic look has or will change and whats more has no real need too - if it is to change too much it will become something else entirley.[/quote]

And I still think I am right on that one without retort.. (My opinion)
Grebo Guru wrote:Your biggest whammy was when you said that you think mecha haven't changed much, won't change much, and that there's isnt much room for change. This is disagree with quite strongly, and again I explained why (including giving examples in a decade-by-decade format).
See above and also I dont see huge leaps in design in your list I also dont see too many actual links between contemporary designs of the real world and the corresponding designs from the mecha shows other than some expected leakage that is.
Grebo Guru wrote:Ahem. First of all, I never mentioned any ZZ mecha designers. (Although I do think that there were several VERY talented, innovative designers working on the series.) Second, I was referring to the artists themselves, not necessarily the works I cited them for (I only offered those titles as a way to quickly reference who I was talking about).
If that is true - good for you - I do think that the correct links to the correct art and some mention of this would be more usefull than mentioning names most people are either overly familiar with or not at all familiar with - But the main pont it that I still cant see how these designers can be expected or even cited as having a direct influence on
something TWENTY years hence? Ill give u that they will in some way effect the next 1 -5 years and through the butterfly effect have an input in the far future - but I find the mention of them in reference to this topic of very little relevance - other than as a jumping off point like which you poo pooed regarding my topic of anthropomorphics.
Grebo Guru wrote: But we're not here to talk about whether or not we liked Evangelion. I just cited Ikuto Yamashita (who happened to work on Eva) as one of those innovative designers. And believe me, his most innovative work was NOT done on Eva. If you look at Dark Whisper and some of his sketchworks, you'll see much more radical designs.

I dig Godzilla too. I absolutely adored "Godzilla X Mechagodzilla," which I was lucky enough to see in a movie theater in Tokyo on opening weeked. It was me, my 2 friends, and about a zillion little children in that theater...!
Hurrah!! Godzilla brought us together - I always knew he/she could do it...

The bit after about member size and the like is not for public re-consumption. Suffice to say I am detecting a more likable side to you GG :)
Grebo Guru wrote: I didn't say it was humanoid. I said it qualifies as "mecha." YOU are the who said that mecha have to be humanoid. Or did you? It seemed like you were... But if you don't think that's true, you're proving my point.

Anyway, I don't think mecha have to be humanoid (as I think I made clear). Think about the Neue-Ziel from Gundam 0083, or the BaCUE from Gundam SEED, or the SNN Valkyrie from Macross II, or the Vunder Schatze from FSS, or the HAL-X10 from Patlabor, or the Lista from L-Gaim... They, and many other anime machines, are limbed, but not humanoid, and I doubt anyone would think they're "not mecha".
I think you already know I never stated they have to be Humanoid - right!? - I posted that my prefered form is humanoid etc....Again Moot point as I never said what you where answering too. ps I see a very humanoid form in the Neue-Ziel as well as some of the others and cant believe that you wouldnt agree?
Grebo Guru wrote: Hmm. That's pretty hostile, SteamTrooper. Are you just here to show off your temper, or maybe to feel superior, or do you genuinely want to share? I ask you to ask yourself that question.
Touche!! oh do cmon GG you are better than that sort of argument suggests I hope. Question asked and answered - I have no interest in pointless arguments and one upmanship - I do however like to share my knowledge and opinions with others - and in return hear others opinions - I have prety high temper threshold but a low tolerence to pedants and naysayers especially when they tend to discourage open discourse on forums (something you are making me feel like I am party too now) but it has its limits - and you have been approaching them.

I apologise for the low remark regarding your possible mental state - although I have no evidence as yet to the contrary.
Grebo Guru wrote:I think comments are warranted. Rudeness, however, is another matter...
Rudeness? I have commented and been treated rudely several times - I have not commented and been treated rudely several times - I felt at least one rude act was owed to me in return. Rudeness takes many forms you know - not just the vulgar name calling you are implying - I
would think a man of your age might appreciate that fact. (not Opinion -fact)

Anyway that all done (I hope) I have to say I might misjudge your tone at times and feel that maybe I am misjudged in turn - I truly apologize if I have insulted you but feel that little of what you say has positive use - whilst much has a very negative and patronizing tone - Like I said I maybe misjudging and would like hope that your future input will prove otherwise.

Adam

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Post by Grebo Guru » Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:26 am

Im gonna address this in PMs. I dont want to aggravate everyone else here with this anymore.

In fact, Id like to apologize to everyone here for wasting so much bandwidth, screen scrolling space, and patience with this petty tit-for-tat squabbling.

Anyway... back to the discussion, eh?
Last edited by Grebo Guru on Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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On the Yamashita Tangent

Post by Newton » Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:48 am

GG:

I know this should go on another thread, but your commentary brought it to mind: Are there more publications showcasing Ikuto Yamashita's work?

I have "Sore Wo Nasu Mono" (awesome book), and will be buying "Dark Whisper 3" ASAP. Are there more books of Mr. Yamashita's artwork out there?

I do agree that he is one of the vanguard mecha designers today. Overall, I find his work as exciting as Mamoru Nagano's (which is saying something coming from a hardcore FSS fan).

Thanks for your help,

-Newton

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Post by Grebo Guru » Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:46 pm

Heya Newton,

Seems we both dig Yamashita's work! Well, as for other books, I can't think of any off the top of my head... I seem to recall there being another but Im not sure what it is. "Sore Wo Nasu Mono" is indeed THE Yamashita book to have, isn't it? One of my favs -- packed with sooooo much mecha design yumminess!

But as for other books, I'll tell ya what. I'll get in touch with Karl Horn (editor of Viz's Evangelion manga, and a huge Gainax expert) and see if he can give us any other sources of Yamashita art.

Annnnd, say! You're getting Dark Whisper 3? Where in the world did you find it?!?! And, uh, can you maybe get another copy as well? For, oh, I don't know... a fellow mecha fan who's willing to pay handsomely? (wink wink, nudge nudge)

Grebo!

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Yamashita and Future Mecha

Post by Newton » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:06 am

Oh Guru of Grebo:

Don't quote me on this, but I believe I found DW3 listed at www.discountanimedvd.com. I am going to grab it on payday (next Friday), so if you want, I can score you one then. If you email me we can make arrangements for me to send it to you.

Yes, Yamashita is one of the top designers of the day. I'm waiting for an annoucement of some kind for a Yukikaze design book(hope, hope)...

Anyway, I'm also hoping for more biomech designs to show up again. I know they were the rage back in the 80's (hot-cha!), and I still hold out hope for more of that kind of work.

-Newt

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Re My Last Post...

Post by Newton » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:33 am

It's not at discountanimedvd.com. I have found it listed at:

www.akibaotaku.com

but I know I saw it elsewhere for cheaper. Time to start looking again; I'll keep you posted.

-Newt

ghostfox

Re: Mechas 20 years

Post by ghostfox » Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:02 am

Temjin wrote:I been wondering what do you guys think 20 years from now mechas would look like?

are u tlaking real life or tv moive wise?

well the way drawings are made now then before are quite different but flow the same with design i mean look at gundam lol almost the same mecha just draw and some ex added lolol

as for real life look at ghost in the shell my fav ^_^ and see what i mean

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Re: Mechas 20 years

Post by Grebo Guru » Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:23 am

ghostfox wrote: i mean look at gundam lol almost the same mecha just draw and some ex added lolol
Mmm. Considering that Kunio Okawara has been the main mecha designer for Gundam of and on since its inception, yeah...

And hell, the stuff he's doing now looks pathetically similar to stuff he did 10 years ago. Not quite as good (which isnt saying much) but still similar.

Example: The Impulse Gundam. What a joke! Lame lame lame design. I kinda like the head... but I liked its head better the first four or five times it was used!

Grebo

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